"Today, even if hybrids aren't exactly cost-effective, consumers keep buying them."

This is the only statement I really take exception to. If most people chose the "most cost effective" vehicle the used car market would be booming and all of the maufacturers would be drowning in red ink. I would really like to know the author's formula to determine "cost-effective" but since this is a "throw away" line in a general interest article I doubt he knows what he's talking about.

The last line is my favorite.

Exactly.

according to NBC Nightly News, sometime last week, Toyota passed GM to become #1... not #2....

afaik, Toyota passed ford about 2 years ago. did anyone do any fact checking for this article??

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DaveinOlyWA @ Jan 22 2007, 07:26 PM) [snapback]379292[/snapback]</div>

Both of these statements that you have made here are definitely not true. And you have not offered any sources to back them up.

In fact, I went to the NBC Nightly news web site, and found this news story from last week that you refer to. In the story, NBC news reported that Toyota is now positioned so that it COULD replace GM as the world's #1 auto maker SOMETIME LATER THIS YEAR. They never said anything claiming that Toyota already had passed them, as you claim. Here is a link to this NBC Nightly News story for everyone to view:

NBC News Reports on Toyota's Growing Market Share

And as far as your statement that Toyota passed Ford 2 years ago in auto production, I can post links to numerous recent news stories reporting that Toyota just recently did this. I don't see how you could possibly dispute this. Do you really think that BusinessWeek engages in such slopping and inaccurate reporting? Here are links to two other recent examples, although one can easily find dozens of such articles using various search engines:

Forbes Magazine reports Toyota about to Pass Ford

USATODAY newspaper reports Toyota passes Ford for First Time

I'm not sure how you could become so confused as to post such false info like this to the board. I think you may need to follow you own advice about doing more research.

Lance

"Cost-effective" is right up there with "skin is out this year." People like to think that they buy autos smartly but most get over turned by the hype. When I went looking for a "green car" GM,Ford,DB, had nothing to offer me. It is their job to have the vehicle on the market that I want and need, that is the reason that they are in business. That is the reason that upper management makes super big bucks. Don't blame me or call me foolish for the big three's mistakes.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TonyPSchaefer @ Jan 23 2007, 08:58 AM) [snapback]379446[/snapback]</div>

Does that mean it was actually next Monday when I was reading the article?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TonyPSchaefer @ Jan 23 2007, 08:58 AM) [snapback]379446[/snapback]</div>

Talk about being scooped!

Tom

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(TonyPSchaefer @ Jan 23 2007, 05:58 AM) [snapback]379446[/snapback]</div>

I think that's the norm for magazines. Want an extreme case? I got my (SciFi Mag.) Analog about a week ago.
It's dated April 2007. News magazines aren't that bad of course.

Dave M.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LanceinOregon @ Jan 23 2007, 12:25 AM) [snapback]379417[/snapback]</div>

i have no hard evidence whatsoever on who sells the most cars and really dont care. i still have the show on tape and i just checked it and Brian Williams said in preface to the segment that "sometime THIS week, Toyota will pass gm to become the #1 automaker in the world"

granted in the story, it says gm will pass Toyota sometime this year, but that segment is not live. its taped and could have been taped weeks in advance. now that is how he introduced the segment. he may be wrong, after all, the news frequently mis-states facts. but to say that Toyota is getting ready to pass ford??? i said that was news TWO YEARS ago. but you are right, i am wrong on that. you might notice that USA today article is from 2003. so Toyota actually passed Ford THREE YEARS AGO


obtw... we are simply talking about different things here. Toyota is passing gm to become #1 in the WORLD... it is true that Toyota is still #3 in UNITED STATES sales behind both gm and ford

You are indeed correct that it looks like regarding the Ford vs Toyota data, we were looking at different data: US vs World Wide Sales. So I apologize about not picking up on that myself, as that accounted for the discrepancy between us.

I would still argue that you are dead wrong about Toyota having already passed GM, however, as we are not even a single month into 2007 at this point. So there obviously cannot be any data gathered yet to support such a conclusion. And all data reported for 2006 shows Toyota still #2. If you cannot produce any such announcement anywhere on any news service on the web, then I would say that you should retract your assertion regarding GM having already been past.

All of this is rather academic, though, I must admit. As there is no way that GM is going to turn things around, and increase their auto production this year. And they would have to do that, since Toytota is planning this year to exceed GM's production for last year. And I have no doubt that they will most likely meet their mark. So the only bone of contention here is WHEN Toyota will pass GM, not whether this will eventually happen or not.

I would never again consider buying a car from either Ford or GM myself. My first car when I was a teenager was a Ford, and my second a GM from 1983 when their product was absolute crap. My Chevy practically seemed to be designed to self-destruct once it got past 100,000 miles. Things started to fail left and right. My Ford was actually quite reliable, and was still running OK when I sold it. I needed a newer and larger sized car since I had a family by then, and sadly chose GM.

I certainly will not be helping either company out. When a person gets burned real bad by a brand, no matter what type of product it is, it is extremely difficult to purchased again from that company. I've been a Honda owner for my last two vehicles since my GM, and have been pretty happy.

But my new Prius stands head and shoulders above either of my two Hondas. This car continues to amaze me. The ironic thing is that if Honda made a hatchback version of the Civic with auto transmission, I probably would have stuck with Honda. They also sent me all sorts of advertising about the Fit, but when I went to the local dealership, they had none in stock to show me, and said they would not have availability until close to Christmas. Mind you, I had been receiving emails and mailings from Honda for over 4 months about the Fit at that point, yet they had no product available for sale. That was a real turn-off.

In contrast, the biggest local Toyota dealership here had 27 new 2007 Prius models in stock when I bought my Prius this month. So I was able to get the exact options package and color that I wanted. They even discounted it over $1,000 below MSRP. I had never seen the Prius advertised on sale before, which is what got me into the dealership. Just 4 months ago, the only other nearby Toyota dealer told me that I would have to wait a full month in order to get a Prius, and they wanted $1,100 OVER MSRP for it. So I got my Prius for $2,100 less than than what this other dealer wanted for the exact same vehicle 4 months ago.

It is interesting that Ford now appears to be floating the idea of partnering with Toyota more closely on Hybrids. After all, they had to license a number of Toyota patents, in order to produce the Hybrid Escape. One of the ideas apparently mentioned is Ford producing an OEM FORD verison of the Prius.

I wonder how many would want to buy a Forius??

See:

BusinessWeek on Ford and Toyota working together

Ford does not even own their factories anymore at this point. They had to mortgage them all recently, in order to avoid bankruptcy.

And GM says that they are forming an alliance with BMW and Daimler Chrysler to develop hybrid technology superior to Toyota's. Yea, right!

Lance

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jkash @ Jan 20 2007, 05:21 AM) [snapback]377938[/snapback]</div>

Part of the above isn't entirely true, the part about GM not seeing the significance of the Prius. I think they did see the significance of the Prius but chose to ignore it. Toyota saw the environmental handwriting on the wall and began developing the Prius while GM made a half-hearted but semi-successful EV-1, but their ultimate goal apparently was not to comply with the California law, but to change the California law as they had with every other fuel efficiency or safety related mandate. When the Prius debuted at the 1997 Tokyo Auto Show, GM execs in attendance realized that they had been trumped (ala "Donald Trump-ed"??). This is all recounted in a book called, The Prius that Changed the World. The book is translated from Japanese and the language is a bit stiff at times, but the story is a fascinating glimpse into the dynamics and efficiency of Toyota, and a telling contrast to the bloated CEO top heavy corporate climate in Detroit.

It's indeed ironic that GM produces more fuel efficient models than Toyota does. Maybe because they ruled the roost for so many years, GM execs became complacent and focused too heavily on short term profits with no long term strategy to meet the demands of an increasingly petroleum deficient world. Toyota hired engineers; GM hired lawyers, and the market seems to believe that the engineers built better cars than the lawyers.
Bob

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(LanceinOregon @ Jan 23 2007, 10:22 AM) [snapback]379603[/snapback]</div>

i will state one more time,

i do not know anything about the sales of any automaker

i did not nor did i claim to make this statement concerning gm or Toyota

I ONLY submit the quote in the previous post made on NBC Nightly News last week.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Bob Allen @ Jan 23 2007, 01:39 PM) [snapback]379613[/snapback]</div>

And GM is now complaining that the Japanese have an unfair advantage in Washington. I find this very hard to believe, but I guess anything is possible.

http://www.shortnews.com/shownews.cfm?id=5...FTOKEN=61707870

wow... that is pathetic. reminds me of a 3 year old. justifies his wrong action by pointing out the errors of others real and imagined