Toyota is comparing the Prius PHV to the Chevy Volt

Let's do some simple calculations using this formula, Total Distance - AER / GasOnlyMPG = Total Gas used to determine at what distance for both cars to be driven in order to use the same amount of fuel.

Scenario 1 Extreme Hypermiling - PiP 20AER, 65MPG, Volt 65AER, 50 MPG. 215 miles
Scenario 2 highway - PiP 11AER, 49MPG, Volt 30AER, 40 MPG. 114 miles
Scenario 3 City - PiP 13AER, 51MPG, Volt 35AER, 35 MPG. 83 miles
Scenario 4 City w2/charges on PiP - PiP 26AER, 51MPG, Volt 35AER, 35 MPG. 54 miles
regardless of how you drive, you'd have to drive a significant distance in a day for the volt to use more gas than a Plugin Prius. This is why in real world MPG the Volt simply gets twice the MPG as a PiP. Your MPG Estimates Your MPG Estimates
You just have to decide is the poorer fuel economy in the PiP worth the trade off for getting a roomier interior, more seating, better collision avoidance system than a Volt.
Toyota really needs to go back to the drawing board and redesign the next generation Prius to accumulate a larger battery pack. Toyota should offer a long range PiP, a lower trim prius with a 40 mile AER and price it competitively with the Volt. With the same chassis, Toyota can also offer a 15 mile AER prius with a spare tire. I'm just sayin...

 

I agree with your basic point, but just wanted to make it clear that the AER assumptions understate the Volt's AER in comparison with the PiP. The above AER numbers are not based on EPA although the gasoline hybrid numbers are.

 

That certainly ruined the attempt to spread gasoline anxiety.

In addition, it is an honor to use the cleanest 50 MPG gas engine that runs on regular gas. I can't say the same to the Volt.

 

To not pay for unused capacity;

To not carry around unused weight;

To have more interior cabin space;

To be at risk for a smaller bill if the battery needs replacement.

ymmv

 

Those could be good reasons.

Not a good reason: battery completes charging sooner simply because it has less storage capacity

 

Actually, the first is not an advantage at all. A Volt plugged into a 120v outlet would probably give you just as much range in 3 hours. ~11 miles. The fact that if can be fully charged on so little electricity is due to small capacity. Whether you put a cup of water in a gallon bottle or a cup, it's still a cup of water. How far you can go on that cup... that still isn't really well measured... I don't think MPGe does the job. I would like to see kwh per mile...

The key thing with a plug-in is the ability to get power from a variety of sources. Perhaps with a total investment of approximately $80k, you can buy a plug-in hybrid or an EV and install a large enough solar system so that you never have to pay for energy (electricity or gas) again. Photovoltaics have come down in price to 1/4 of what they were selling for 8 years ago. $1.25 or so for 1 watt of capacity. In the U.S., NYC area, you get about 3-4kwh for each 1000 watts of capacity you have installed. All told $80k is a little more than a BMW 750. And this investment would actually pay you back...

 

Sorry, the most common reports, even from GM's main Volt engineer, is that the Volt gets about 36 miles of distance from the grid. That's him reporting his own usage. (YMMV)

I used the reports from the field that the PHV is getting a solid 14 miles of distance from grid power while the Volt is getting about 36+ miles from grid power. The difference is ~ 24-26 miles.

My analysis stands.

 

Do you have any numbers? Warm-up cycle length, gasoline consumption during warm-up, rate-of-charge etc.

 

I wonder what two 6 ft. tall, 200 lb occupants would look like in back of Volt ... Volt reminds me of Honda Insight II in back

Note - I don't like cramped cars.

Volt is like a 4 seatbelt version of a coupe that happens to have 4 doors and a liftback. Not sure why Volt even has 4 doors.

 

Volt with 3 hours charge is not the same as Prius PHV with 3 hours charge. The difference is 37 MPG vs. 50 MPG after the charge is depleted. If you don't recharge the Volt longer, it has the disadvantage.

Both cars may give similar range if driven under the same conditions. However, conditions are not the same. Prius PHV's blended design will cap the draw at about 38kW but Volt can draw 111kW.

If you can recharge more often, what's the point of having/paying more for a bigger battery? The future points to more charging stations, not less. The battery simply need to cover each leg of the trip, with enough recharge time provided.

Smaller battery pack also result in better gas MPG. A plugin hybrid will use both fuels so it is important to optimize both.

Sometimes, less is more. This is one of those case in term of efficiency and bang for the buck.

 

You are comparing PiPs and Volts driving under different road and climate conditions. How many PiP owners are getting a solid average 14 miles on EV over flat roads in mixed city/highway driving? I havent seen any. John1701A appears to be averaging 11-12 miles per charge.

Sure, you can find folks who get 14 miles on an individual charge with careful driving under ideal conditions but for the large majority of PiP drivers that will not be their long-term average. You can also get 50+ miles of EV in a volt under similar conditions.

My personal annualized average (not just winter or summer) is about 43 miles of EV range on a single charge on my 20-30 miles daily commute.

 

You are mixing apples and oranges

EPA volt 35 miles CD, prius phv11 miles CD including 1 mile of gas. So EPA is 35 to about 10. If that 10 becomes 14, then the 35 needs to inflate. Many volt and prius phv report above epa mileage. This changes with high heater usage

GM on YMMV 25-50 miles, Toyota 10-15 miles. Again if you pick the high end of the prius phv range, then driving will likely get you at the high end of the volt.

You can stand by your numbers, but you should understand that you are not comparing the cars driven the same way.

 

The Volt is bigger than a coupe, but a bit 'shorter' in the rear passenger space. I would not qualify the Volt's rear section as 'coupe' space, as the doors are somewhat sufficient to get in and out of the car from my own sizing of it and looking, but never really sat in the back.

I do believe that the rear section may prove a bit 'cramped' if the driver is a bit taller. Of course, never really sitting in a standard Prius, I can't justify if the same problem for the Prius, but with the Prius v, I know the room is more 'significant'.

The argument over the 'charging' time is, imho, moot. A large battery vs small battery will always skew the time in order to charge the battery unless the charger comes to play. The capacity of the battery is the more important factor in the car and how the car uses said battery.

The thing I see here in the arguments though, ignore the sailent fact that the Prius Plugin will use Gas more than the Volt because of how the Prius is setup to do the warmup with the ICE engine and will kick in the ICE engine when you push past certain thresholds. The Volt will kick in its ICE engine when the Volt probably hits certain SOC levels.

Right now... This is all spreadsheet poop throwing... And to be honest, if you guys REALLY want to prove your point, the best way to do it... The Volt Drivers rent a Prius Plugin, drive it a couple of weeks the same way they drive their Volt car.

And no, I don't want to hear "That won't work." That is bs. From practical experience in arguing with gamers about this spreadsheet arguing, take the very thing you are condemning and use it in the same way you would with something else... And put those numbers forward. Same conditions, same situation. When we have repeatable, real world data... This will at least give something more factual information than supposition.

 

Your scenario #4 is invalid: apples to oranges. If the PiP can have two charges, the Volt should be allowed the same recharge time as well. Not saying two full charges for the Volt, but 1 full plus same time/voltage for second as allowed for PiP. Then calc your #miles.

Fair is fair. :rockon:

 

The data we are seeing suggests otherwise. I have not seen any Prius PHV owner getting less than 50 MPG, only above. John is getting 52 MPG on gas miles (excluding electric miles). His 2010 averaged 47.5 MPG in March (2010, '11 and '12).

The synergy is at play here. The plugin electricity is boosting gas MPG (further) and the gas engine is lowering the electricity consumption per mile (vs. EV).

 

Huh? Prius PHV two full charges use less electricity and time than one Volt full charge.

 

The problem I see here though, Wolf, is the fact that people are comparing situations with spreadsheet arguments and not doing 'like for like' conditions. As I hammered out to a gamer in Planetside, "Great... You got numbers, you got Time to Kill... Now... Tell me... Do you ASSUME said person is going to hit target 100% of the time? Do you ASSUME target is not going to be moving? Do you ASSUME you are not moving? Do you ASSUME your LOS is going to be perfect?" That is where the problem with all this bickering is... You can beat it til the horse is not only dead and a bloody pulp, its useless when the situation is variable and having people say one thing and argue the numbers but never putting it in the 'real world', repeatable situation. Take Dr.Innovation. He will swear up and down that his car will be better. But without him driving a Prius Plugin, driving it the same way he does the Volt, he has no reasonable frame of reference other than his own perception or arguing the spreadsheet numbers.

And this is where this argument is going... We got people going one way or the other, but NO ONE stopping for a moment and doing a practical real world test. The spreadsheet argument will go only so far, and to be honest, I never been one for the spreadsheet argument as example of above where I could prove, with 'real world' application the theory is as 'spot on' as, Mr Scott would put in the movie, "It's like hitting a bullet, with a smaller bullet, while blindfolded riding a horse."

And yes, he will get back to us when he finds Admiral Archer's Prized beagle.

 

I agree with you completely. But Dr. Innovation did drive a prius plug in conversion. It wasn't the car for him, and I doubt there is anyway on earth he could use as little gas with a prius phv. John1702a wouldn't be caught dead in anything gm made, he uses very little gas and recharges often, the prius phv is the right car for him. There are many things that don't fit on a spread sheet. Some will value the volts handling, acceleration, and the fact it doesn't look like a prius. Some will like the prius phv because it does look like a prius, and has a bigger back seat and don't care at all about handling. The sales comparison had touch tracer as a big item, I don't think after the first week I thought it was anything but a dumb toy. I always adjust HVAC on the unit not on the steering wheel, its a big so what.


I equate the shorter time to charge argument to this. Imagine you modified a hummer h3 to have a 1 gallon gas tank. Now said hummer driver could say look how much better than a prius, it costs less to fill it up. Dishonest arguments often don't win sales.

 

Well, Keiichi.... even if someone go and perform a comparison test, that's only valid for his/her commute. This is why we need to look at everyone's data and use the average to really compare.

 

However, is the Plugin conversion == the Prius Plugin. If I recall correctly, an enginer kit did not resolve the issue of the governed electric motor which is set at 42 mph versus the 62, and the kit only allowed for the below 40ish mph speeds to make use of it.

Also, this is less about whether the car is for him or not, just simply on the fact we know what he doesn't like about the prius, mostly the acceleration is not for him. However, this arguement with regards to the the gas and such... The thing I am seeing is people are doing these spreadsheet arguments and they are all an assumptions.

The proper way to prove a point is take the two vehicles in question, drive them the same way you would the other, same commute route. The only variable thrown in would be the actual commuting traffic, hence you would do this over a week and hopefully conditions will average out. Bring those numbers forward and THEN someone has a reasonable argument to put forward. But right now, the 'bible thumping, spreadsheet evangelism' isn't going to be a 'reasonable' method of presenting the facts.