Interesting to look at the Hylander and RX numbers. Not exactly setting the world on fire with either of those vehicles, and the trend lines don't look good.

As an owner of both a Prius and Hybrid Hylander it makes sense. The HH simply isn't a Prius in terms of fuel economy, features, value, or "wow factor". Don't get me wrong, I like the vehicle, but when people ask me about my hybrids I'm much more inclined to talk about the Prius than I am the Hylander.

For those of you who don't have both vehicles to compare - who only own a Prius - well, all I can say is the Prius really is a special kind of car. And its heritage - built day one from the ground up as a hybrid is what makes it that way. It's not just the HSD (the Hylander has that too), it's the whole package that Toyota put together that makes it what it is - a great car and a great value. I never fully appreciated that until I got the Hylander.

OK, somebody hand me a hanky. I'm having a "moment" here.

Geoff

Thanks for the insights GeoffM. I got the same feeling from reading up on the cars and looking at them at the showroom. I'm glas I went for the Prius but I really hope Toyota understands these sells numbers and gives us a true FE lexus! A lot of people who start to think about hybrids seem to first look at the HIHy but the decides to go all the way to a true FE car. If there was a Lexus verision of the Prius I would have bought it.

It's cool to see how much market they have proven to exists with still limited marketing

I also own both but I got the HH in June and then realized I had to have a P. I knew I wanted an HH when I first heard of Toy's plans in 04 - the early P's didn't capture my eye. The H was quite enjoyable as my first hybrid and but then the '05 P is just so much fun to operate that I look forward to pulling into a gas station. The P is the only thing that could keep me away from the HH. Now I need something to pry me out of the P! Toyotas are addictive for me. It is a shame the HH doesn't have a smartkey like the P - that feature is just so convenient.

IMO, the HH will garner attention the same way my '84 4runner did - as the years go by, there will be more of them on the road than the Pathfinder or other comparable vehicles of that day. One downside was that the 4R was a popularly stolen vehicle in the desert SW. I can't see the HH as atheft target except for parts.

Much of the target market is aware of how the vehicles were reviewed in the Times. The Highlander and LX hybrid are quickly turning into sales disasters, it will be interesting if Toyota does any production reductions behind the scenes.

i think that's kind of presumptuous, and i think you're being highly highly negative about those two vehicles.

Because those two hybrids are based on an existing vehicle, it is not appropriate to compare the growth of the RX400h and the Highlander Hybrid to the Prius. The Prius is a completely new vehicle in a completely new segment. It fundamentally is more attractive because Toyota doesn't offer a "conventional" version of it. It's something "new" so there is plenty of room to grow.

The Highlander Hybrid and the RX400h are based on the existing Highlander and RX designs, so automatically, it's targetting an already established target customer. It's highly unlikely that you would look at the RX400h or Highlander Hybrid if you were not already looking at getting a conventional RX330 or Highlander. You simply won't see the amount of growth in sales of those two vehicles as the Prius...

Toyota has clearly positioned these two vehicles as super-premium vehicles that offer more luxury and more features (plus a significantly higher price tag) than the conventional Highlander or RX. So naturally, you won't get a majority of the sales in the hybrid versions because most people will just settle for less features, less power, and better price.

But lets keep this in perspective. Here are the total sales (combined) of all RXs and Highlanders, hybrid or not for Jan:
Highlander total = 8748
RX total = 6189

Now we have the number of hybrids of each flavor.
HH = 2,263
RXh = 1,477

And the split?
Highlander Hybrid ratio = 25.8%
RXh ratio = 23.9%

Combined hybrid/non-hybrid = 25.0%

So roughly 1 out of every 4 highlanders/RXs sold in the US are hybrids. NOT BAD for a higher priced trim! You can't expect everyone who buys a highlander or an RX to buy a much higher priced version.

Not explosive growth like the Prius... Toyota never positioned these cars as explosive growth though. Eventually, if they make more affordable versions of these cars (say... lose the V6) they might get a higher percentage of hybrids/conventionals sold... if they made a 4cyl highlander that was cheap enough, i would not be surprised to see 50%... but as for right now, these vehicles are not failures.

I would say the trend lines don't look spectacular, but they certainly don't look BAD. Toyota is easily selling 1 hybrid out of every 4 Highlanders or RXs sold, as I mentioned before... this is not degrading, and is stable.

Toyota will need to do more to these vehicles to see more growth, like I said before, and I agree with you that the Prius is probably a more exciting car fundamentally... but this is not BAD news at all.

Imagine if 1 out of 4 of ALL of the vehicles sold by Toyota were hybrids... that would be a PHENOMENAL milestone... the RX and the Highlander show that it's possible.

IMHO, one more important difference is that for Hylander or a RX, a hybrid vs non-hybrid decision is truly just that.. a hybrid vs non-hybrid.

There you can pretty much get the exact same vehicle without the hybrid drivetrain and without a a hybrid premium.
So it is really easy to quantify exactly how much the hybrid premium is and what is the break-even period as such.
So even if decide not a buy a hybrid RX330, you can still get the same features as a hybrid RX400h without the hybrid stuff of course.

With Prius, the decision tree is a lot more complicated, subjective and fuzzy.
Most of the people ( including me) buy a Prius not only because it's a hybrid, but also for a host of other reasons.
Personally, I wanted the cheapest overall car that will carry 4 adults, a child seat and a 100lb dog for short trips. I am not too big on getting a hotrod or towing a lot of stuff , but my car needs to have a lot of creature comforts without being luxury car priced. Prius, on account of it's liftback design, is a cheaper substitute for a small SUV and is quite unrivalled in it's category. It fitted the bill perfectly for me and it's being hybrid was just one factor why I chose it.

Adding my 2 cents about why Prius significantly outsells other hybrid models by Toyota and why, in my opinion, that is not a reflection on viability of Toyota's hybrid forays!

IMHO, one more important difference is that for Hylander or a RX, a hybrid vs non-hybrid decision is truly just that.. a hybrid vs non-hybrid.

There you can pretty much get the exact same vehicle without the hybrid drivetrain and without a a hybrid premium.
So it is really easy to quantify exactly how much the hybrid premium is and what is the break-even period as such.
So even if decide not a buy a hybrid RX330, you can still get the same features as a hybrid RX400h without the hybrid stuff of course.

With Prius, the decision tree is a lot more complicated, subjective and fuzzy.
Most of the people ( including me) buy a Prius not only because it's a hybrid, but also for a host of other reasons.
Personally, I wanted the cheapest overall car that will carry 4 adults, a child seat and a 100lb dog for short trips. I am not too big on getting a hotrod or towing a lot of stuff , but my car needs to have a lot of creature comforts without being luxury car priced. Prius, on account of it's liftback design, is a cheaper substitute for a small SUV and is quite unrivalled in it's category. It fitted the bill perfectly for me and it's being hybrid was just one factor why I chose it.

Adding my 2 cents about why Prius significantly outsells other hybrid models by Toyota and why, in my opinion, that is not a reflection on viability of Toyota's hybrid forays!

I agree raw numbers aren't the way to go.

To sort of rephrase what LM pointed out.

Yes, the Prius has some things going for it that the SUVs don't, particularly the highest FE and the status (cachet).

But, if you look at the numbers comparing apples to apples it looks a little different.

It's a little difficult because there isn't a 'gas only' Prius.

Just taking Jan

Prius 7,654
Camry 27,440
Corolla 24,887

So, the Prius sells about 28% as well as a Camry and about 32% as well as a Corolla.

HiHy 2,263
GasHy 6485

34% Hybrid

400h 1,477
330 4712

32% Hybrid

From this you could say that the SUVs are doing BETTER against their gas only counterparts than the Prius. I'd see that as significant especially since the SUV Hybrids are towing and off-road impaired compared to their gas bretheren.

But, the new RAV4 sold 9,382 - more than either the Highlander or RX Totals.

I'd say the jury's still out on hybrid SUVs, but from these numbers I don't think it's time to call them a failure yet.

Toyota attached a bevy of features to each SUV HSD trim, pricing it some 5 - 8K above the base version. I'm not surprised they got away with it in the RX, but am with the highlander. I expect to see HSD 'migrate' down in the trim lines.

When a base Rav4 + HSD is offered at $2K over base Rav4, then we will be able to draw some conclusions about the so-called suv-hybrid market. I predict it will be a phenomenal success.

It really is apparent to me how great the hybrid technology is when the most popular criticism of it is to point out how it will take 5, 6, 7, or 100 years for it to pay for itself. To me that is really grabbing at straws to knock it...especially in the case of the 400h and Highlander Hybrid in which these versions give you BOTH better performance and fuel efficiency over the non-hybrid versions.

Yes, it is understood you are going to pay more for any option above the baseline but why now with hybrids is it singled out as a poor investment.

Does anybody criticize the guy who buys the V8 version of his Explorer over the V6 for making a poor investment decision, or the guy who puts on a supercharger, or turbo? Those are options that cost more money to give you more horsepower and LESS fuel efficiency.
Somehow the hybrid option that gives you more horsepower AND BETTER fuel efficiency (and less emissions ) has to be held up to some "return on investment" analysis.

"If you can't compete with it, try to knock it down, no matter how tiny and hypocritical your arguments might be," that seems to be where these anti-hybrid people are coming from.

I disagree, 25% of sales in THE FIRST SIX months of the vehicle's availablility is outstanding. Also, what every every forgets is that Toyota can't make them fast enough. So, the 25% should be higher.

Another thing, do we know if sales for the gas-only models has decreased? It would be interesting to note whether there has been a decrease. If there has then it would seem to indicate the hybrid buyers like the vehicle styling and are simply opting for the hybrid drive train. If the gas-only sales have not dimished much, or at all, then it suggests that the hybrid buyers may not have bought the vehicles if they were not hybrid.