I know they're testing the plug in in Japan. But the Japanese have other Prius goodies we don't have too. Like the side signal mirrors.

I wouldn't be surprised if a plug in is available in 2009......in Japan.

While I'd like it to be available here as well, I won't be surprised if it isn't until 2010 or 2011.

BTW 25 miles? Hymotion offers a 20 mile and a 40 mile. Of course Hymotion is LiIon and the 25mile Prius is still NiMH.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BellBoy @ Aug 4 2007, 05:45 PM) [snapback]490657[/snapback]</div>

2009 is a long ways a way. Be better if they came out with one by the end of 2008.

Will it have Li-Ion batteries?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DanCar @ Aug 5 2007, 12:39 AM) [snapback]490776[/snapback]</div>

If it's the 2009 model year it will be out Fall of 2008.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(davidsf @ Aug 5 2007, 12:41 AM) [snapback]490777[/snapback]</div>

No.

The plug-in they're testing in Japan is NiMH.

As usual, your salesman was misinformed or has bad memory.

From all info we have got so far, the next Prius plug-in will be/have
- NiMH battery: Toyota had to issue a news about the delay of next Prius because of redesigning the
Prius due to the decision of not to use Li-Ion battery. Toyota believe that within the next few years
Li-Ion will not be viable in the market place econemy-wise and safety-wise. Apparently, the battery space/structure needs to be redesigned to accomodate NiMH or Li-Ion because of their difference in weight
for the same planned range of travel.
- the vehicle being tested in Japna/US/Europe has 3X NiMH battery that we have on our Prius. The range is 13Km (about 8miles), not 20miles. For that you need 8X batteries of what we have today. Say goodbye to your trunk space entirely. The tail will be heavy, very heavy.

Those was based on what I have gathered from all news. I would love Toyota to surprise me.
I will be first in line to buy a plug-in Prius w/ 20 mile range.
8 miles? I will sit on the fence for a while.

This is all hype balony. We have no idea what Toyota has up their sleeve and Toyota is certainly not going to give it away. Time will tell..

No one knows what Toyota will do - they seem to be very good at keeping thing under wraps until they are ready to go. Testing of a plug-in with NiMH battery may just be for development of proper software and may be usable for whatever type of battery they might choose. I personally hope they wait and put out a 25+ mile range plug in when they decide to sell it to the public. Personally, I hope for an expansion of the hybrid line into smaller cars, like the Yaris. People who are buying those cars are into gas savings anyway and a HSD system using a 1 liter gas engine could really save a bunch and be very practical for urban drivers.

When Toyota comes out with a good plug-in HSD, the rest of the auto manufacturers will be left in the dust -again.

Think about this from Toyota's point of view, not ours. Their planning cycles are much longer than realized.

As a key hint, note that the 200 to 500 volt conversion of the NHW11(01-03 Prius) to NHW20(04-08 Prius) required motors that worked at double the voltage. They achieved this by just changing the windings from parallel to series on the motor/generator stator coil ends. No new motor design was needed. Either that was fantastic luck or some long range planning in their original design.

Now assuming planning (or fantastic luck) on the Batteries, their LiIon will be basically a drop in replacement with a new set of Battery ECU algorithms with little changes in the present transaxle design. It would be exactly the same form factor as what we have now. The new battery would significantly improve milage since there is double the battery capacity, but not by all that much since the engine efficiency is about maxed out. BUT.......

If a Plug In capability were added, very little new circuitry is needed and no changes to the power train are needed. Bottom line here is that the car cost about what it is now. Think of what a killer application this is. Buy a Prius..... and by the way..... you get an 8mi PHEV capability for free if you want to use it.

The LAST hurdle is that the battery really gets cycled hard. This is what I think Toyota is planning and why they are so conservative on getting the LiIon perfected. They know they have a winner if executed right.

There is already a 20+ and 40+ LiIon mileage extender. It was developed by Hymotion of Canada. They're hoping it will be available to the public in early 2008. Cost is approximately $5,000 for the 20 mile and $10,000 for the 40 mile.

If Toyota were to team up with Hymotion they could have plug-ins on the road for the 2009 model year.

But you'd lose your spare tire.

I saw this unit installed in a Prius at the Ford Regional Transportation Center into a Prius owned by SDG&E. It's a fleet vehicle they're using for testing the viability of plug-ins.

I can see Toyota's reluctance to replace the NiMH with LiIon. But the LiION for the plug-in extention seems to be a nice compromise. When I get the time I'll type up my knots and add my picks and leave a link on Priuschat. (Sorry, been very busy with home renovations. Today it's ripping out the closte and putting in an organizer and more painting.)

No big surprise here. I seem to recall that we discussed this item at length (plug-in Prius being available late 2008 as a 2009 model) earlier this year.

Obviously Toyota is publicly testing a plug-in hybrid just to meet the marketing BS of other manufacturers, and to test the viability of this technology for themselves.

I think it is readily apparent to most people that NiMH doesn't have the energy density for a really viable high-production product that the mass market will accept. However LiIon has the energy density required to make a reasonably sized battery that will deliver adequate vehicle range. My gut feeling is that when a "safe" LiIon battery is developed, we'll see mass production of plug-in hybrids.

Keith :unsure:

Another thing. Who knows what's really in the test Prius's. They could pull a fast one and show a couple of test buggies with NiMH batteries and then slip a few with LiIon in it. Toyota could be way more advanced than what they're saying, and falls right in line with their past. Either way, I bet Toyota will surprise us.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Aug 5 2007, 10:47 AM) [snapback]490906[/snapback]</div>

From what I was told by the service mgr., the BWP plug-in has a NiMH battery in it and supposedly the '09 version will too.

As far as losing the spare...the BWP Prius had a spare, but it was not under the covers so to speak--it was covered with a nice leather slipcover and appeared to be a mini donut tire. I could be wrong, but it appeared that the back floor sat lower than in my '06 because even with the tire in there, there seemed to be plenty of room for storage.

BTW, here's BWP's site page on the PHEV: http://burbankwaterandpower.com/phev.html

In addition to a Toyota 'factory' installed 8 mile range plug-in battery, how about a Toyota 'factory' (option package) conformal and very lightweight roof module covered with a solar cell (photovoltaic) array? If anyone is familar with a typical silicon solar cell module, they typically consist of a several square meter aluminum panel with an array of solar cells bonded to the Aluminum surface. So instead of the conventional square (and flat panel) solar cell module, you would instead build a solar cell panel identical to the current Prius roof. Of course, there is the complication of how to encapsulate high efficiency silicon solar cells on the side exposed to sunlight. Glass is typically used in a conventional panel which would likely be too fragile as well as heavy for a rooftop application. Also, I don't know if there's a robust enough (and lightweight) plastic encapsulant (yet!) that would work for automotive rooftop applications to encapsulate fragile silicon solar cells? Alternatively, possibly a lower efficiency thin-film solar cell technology (CdTe) would make more sense for car rooftop recharging since thin-film cells may work better for a curved surface (car) application.

Some rough calculations suggest that a roof top solar cell array could provide about 5 miles of range (battery charging) for a Prius parked out in the Sun most of the day - which gives about 13 miles total daily range on batteries only. I seem to remember that most daily commutes average around 20 miles. So a 100mpg Prius that only costs a few thousand dollars more seems surprisingly reasonable using technology available TODAY. Lets see, how about a choice between a Navigation with leather option for $3000 or a 100mpg option package for the same price, I wonder which one consumers will choose?

As consumers, we've been pre-conditioned to associate additional cost options with luxury (leather, Nav, bigger engine/wheels, etc.). Instead, why can't a somewhat high priced option package be associated with providing much better fuel efficiency?

[
Knocked me for a loop since I thought that Toyota was in the early stages of testing it. He told me that he's driven the car and it can go for about 25 miles before the hybrid system kicks in...I could totally make it to work everyday on electrical!
[/quote]

That sounds like one of the EnergyCS Lithium plug-in converisons. If you look at the calcars.org site you will see conversions by 4 companies. I contacted them all and most are only doing fleets at this time. Only hybrids-plus.com in Colorado would give me a firm price and date to convert but at double the price expected for future plug-in conversions.


We have a few PHEVs in Phoenix being tested by eTec. One is the EnergyCS with lithium batteries that gets over 100 mpg but can't go all electric except at 35 mph or less and no fast accelerations , almost like a standard prius.

A123 the lithium battery makers promises a lithium pack ready for the prius with a 1 hour install in 2008, mass market available. No price was given yet. No certified installation centers yet. Time will tell but now is a little too early.

Bloomberg article from earlier this month stating that GM "... aims to have a drivable prototype in early 2008 that travels about 10 miles on a charge ..."

Also noted in article "Toyota said on July 25 it will road-test experimental plug- in Prius cars this year in the U.S. and Japan. The cars go about eight miles on a charge, Toyota Executive Vice President Masatami Takimoto said at a press conference in Tokyo."


<<http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=apIGQu4uTAQI&refer=home>>

So, Toyota is already road testing their vehicle and the platform (Prius) is already embraced by the market while GM is stating that is has leapfrogged the competition with the Volt when the platform (Volt prototype) and the road tests are not even ready to drive yet.

Once again, big promises from GM and a lack of ability to follow through to completion. I have to admit, I was looking forward to GM's offering and wanted to see what they could come up with since my personal utopia would be every automaker trying to be as green as possible and the market dictating what it will accept, not CAFE or any other legislated goal.

I was even saddened by the recent news that Ford was having major recall issues again. Ford is not a brand that I trusted based on experience in my younger days but they have done much better lately (minus the cruise control switch issues) and were the first "American" car company to embrace hybrid technology.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(BellBoy @ Aug 5 2007, 04:15 PM) [snapback]490945[/snapback]</div>

From their web page: "BWP’s PHEV Prius uses Saphion® technology developed by Valence Technology Inc."

The Valence Saphion batteries are large format Lithium-ion (using safe iron-phosphate chemistry). You can get one of these conversions done yourself from EnergyCS, if you have an early-adopter sized wallet.

Last year, Toyota bought a sizeable share in Subaru....just to get use of their advanced battery technology developments.

Everything on this PHEV matter involving Toyota is pure speculation at the moment.

Toyota's development roadmap shows they have numerous development paths in train, just one of which is PHEV. It, and/or other technology under development will be released to market when proven reliable, marketable, and consumer-ready. Not before.
At least Toyota has a proven record of not using its customers as unpaid test drivers....be thankful that when the new technology (in whatever form) is released, it will be proven, and a worthwhile advance on previous technology. Be thankful for that history and look forward to the future....in all its various forms of new technology!