<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kram @ Aug 27 2007, 09:38 AM) [snapback]502697[/snapback]</div>

Who did the consumer testing for GM that convinced GM there would be 60,000 first-year buyers for a $30,000 PHEV (of unknown quality)? :blink:

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(a priori @ Aug 27 2007, 12:06 PM) [snapback]502726[/snapback]</div>

GM needs the PR, even if they have to give away the cars. That is assuming, rashly, that they will actually follow through and build them versus milking the concept cars for a bit of green washing. It doesn't matter if there is a market for them or not, in fact if GM takes a beating on the offering it may help their lobbying efforts. Win-win for them, although the EV-1 suggests they may not be willing to take one one of those wins. Toyota doesn't need any green street cred and they already have a green halo effect (how many corollas are sold to people who can't wait or quite justify the cost of a Prius?), so Toyota does not have the same do-or-die motivation as GM.

And I don't mean to attack GM. I'm rooting for them, even over Toyota. When people attack GM's green engineering chops, it is important to remember that they did the EV-1, which towards the end was quite a nice little beastie (over 100 mile range, and one kitted out for speed broke 180 mph) - and that was almost a decade ago. With modern batts and the sort of production savings from a Prius scale component ramp up, they could really offer a killer EV with a bare minimum of design time just by doing a mild EV-1 rework and releasing it as EV-2. I believe they have the capability to make their hybrid an equally great vehicle, one that could surpass the Prius in many ways (short commutes in particular) it's just a question of their will.

I agree. I expect to buy a $30K PHEV from whoever releases first. I'd like to see GM trump Toyota on this. Frankly, I think Toyota would like to see a US automaker meet the US pioneer demand too.

Hi All,
Maybe GM will make the engine/generator optional in the Volt? The only issue would be heat in the winter. Which would be no issue at all in southern AZ, CA and TX, Gulf Coast and Florida, not to mention Shanghai, Hong Kong , the surrounding provinces, all of SE Asia (including Singapore), the metropolitan portions of the Indian sub-continent , Brazil and Mexico.

It could happen.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(kram @ Aug 27 2007, 10:38 AM) [snapback]502697[/snapback]</div>

I really think none of the car makers wants this electric vehicle thing to happen. There's no money in it for them.

Many people have asked me if I have to plug in my Prius. I have to go into my usual spiel about not having to plug the car in, that it charges itself.

It's a valid question for Toyota to ask how many people actually would buy a plug-in hybrid. Despite the prospect of incredible gas mileage, many people are loathe to plug a car in at night to charge it.

Harry

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Earthling @ Aug 28 2007, 06:58 AM) [snapback]503157[/snapback]</div>

About people loathe to plug in their car at night - you're kidding, aren't you?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Topgas @ Aug 27 2007, 09:01 PM) [snapback]502955[/snapback]</div>

Bingo! I think that one sentance nails it. There would be very little money made on repairs and maintance that helps fuel (pardon the pun) auto industry income stream. Plus who's to say that big oil didn't give GM $$$ to kill the EV-1. I hate to sound like a paranoia pessimist, but reality in today's world causes that to happen from time to time.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(brad34695 @ Aug 28 2007, 07:46 PM) [snapback]503497[/snapback]</div>

Paranoid pessimist? It's called reality theory, not conspiracy theory. Who Killed the Electric car for those needing a wake-up call. We are all being duped. And not just on our oil/energy front. So good is the duping that hardly anyone cares...

Saddlemakers did not what the horseless carriage to happen. IBM did not what the PC to happen (enough to replace mainframes).

Ford did want the car to happen and made the production line that did the trick. Apple, Dell and many others did want the PC to happen, so they integrated features and maintained software compatability to make it so.

It's absolutely correct that automakers do not want the electric car to upset the status quo. That is the basis for Teslamotors business plan. Time will tell if they are another example of the above.
.
Sort of surprising to see the GM Chevy billboard advertising that just when up:

"GAS FRIENDLY TO GAS FREE" (While letters on a green backgound....of course)

Looks like they are passing the point of no return in committing to the Volt.

But plugging in your cellphone and PDA and camera at home is *such*
a hassle! All those wires! Wouldn't we all rather take them to the
"recharging station" and then stand around with nothing to do for
half an hour while someone else nicks us us four times as much money
to charge up our toys for us? Would you like fries with that?
.
_H*

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(finman @ Aug 29 2007, 02:52 PM) [snapback]503920[/snapback]</div>

At first my brow began to wrinkle. Then I remembered the 1956 movie, “Invasion of the Body Snatchersâ€, a classic sci-fi flick.

The difference is, however, after viewing the movie, I didn’t start telling people that we’re being invaded.

The thing is that in populated areas like LA and such, where the Prius is extremely popular, there are a large percentage of people living in Condos, and such. I don't have anyway to plug my car in. With my CURRENT 2.2 mile commute I am not getting mid 40's any more but I only use 9 gallons of gas every 3 weeks, big improvement from 35-40g/wk with the gas guzzling Sport Trac I used to drive.

Don't forget that in many parts of the country, people plug their cars in every night for half the year: not to charge them, but to keep them warm. People will plug their cars in if it means spending half as much for every mile driven.

The real problem is that the big car companies are intricately linked to big oil. No conspiracies here. They own big chunks of each other, and their boards of directors are interlocked. If GM builds an electric car, GM loses money because it profits now from every gallon of gas burned.

But oil is getting exponentially more expensive, and when people can no longer afford to drive their cars, those companies that are ready to position themselves to sell electric cars will take off, just as Apple took off when Lotus-123 finally turned the home computer from a toy to a tool. Look for companies like Tesla to mushroom into giants, as profit-oriented as GM, but with a product people want.

It's too bad Toyota and Honda seem unwilling to see the future.

Most big auto mfgs will have no trouble switching to EVs. It's probably a helluva lot easier to make an EV than a standard ICE vehicle. They already have enormous expertise building cars and they can leverage all of it. Several of these companies have already built EVs. The only limiting factor at this point is the battery tech, and companies unwillingness to lose their dealership service/maintenance cash cows. Once it becomes obvious that demand for ICEs is tanking, assembly lines will be retooled and the EVs will pour forth.

I think Toyota and Honda see the future quite clearly, they just don't wanna let go of the present just yet.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tripp @ Aug 30 2007, 09:51 PM) [snapback]504643[/snapback]</div>

The only problem with this is they risk losing the whole game if oil really does peak soon and things go down hill quickly. I'm a real believer in the free market will solve problems like this but it could also backfire by taking down the economy enough that there's not much market left for them to profit from.

The biggest problem is that a dealerships profits are directly linked to the service department. EV's will require much less service that an ICE car.

On that service subject. I don't understand why people take their cars to the dealer for the 30k and 60k service. They don't really do anything except change the oil and look at your car. Those services are a complete rip-off.

Toyota is concerned about vehicles that they don't even market yet? Where is the Hybrid pickup that was designed from the beginning to be a hybrid, taking full advantage of the technology. I see the Poser/Hero wagon Tindra in so many commercials performing stunts and magic, except at the pump, now on sale again! Low Low prices for fuel suckers!
Where is the new class of vehicle that is not a Sportsman Utility Vehicle or a Van and is certainly not a Crossover? This new breed of vehicle is roomy for it's size, sits higher than a car by a bit (not much), can be AWD for snow or driving around your yard, excellent fuel economy, very aerodynamic, pleasant to drive, low maintenance, ect. Designed from the start to be a Hybrid that can carry more than one battery pack if needed, begin as a plug-in or be converted to one. Fuel economy farkles anyone?
It is easy to tell people what they should be doing to deal with our problems, now we need the hardware to make real changes.