I spoke to Irv Miller at the Wash DC Gen 3 Prius event. Yes he is not all that excited by the PHEV 'option'....not many within Toyota are overly enthused it appears to me. I know that I'm not really enthused about them and I sell them. I wouldn't buy one given the current state of technology and infrastructure.

IMO the vast, vast, vast, vast majority of the buying population has no interest at all right now in the PHEVs. PHEVs and EVs are a primary part of the future of personal transportation but right now is too early. Right now the next world to conquer is getting buyers to take the first step away from the basic ICE technology of the 20th Century. That first step would be gas-electric hybrids.

Until gas goes above 6 dollars a gallon, EV's and PHEV's will be niche vehicles. Perhaps the car lobby can out lobby the oil lobby and have a $3 tax imposed on every gallon of gas?

Well, I still hve a $500 deposit down at the local Toy dealership, waiting for the first Plug-in to hit the showroom floor. And I'm not first in line, so there are a number of us who are ready for PHEVs. I'd trade this '10 in a heart beat if I could have a plug!

That's ANOTHER sore spot. The 150 or so being delivered this year are going to "Fleet use". We tried & tried to find a way onto THAT list. Gawd, you'd think I was speaking Navajo ... and asking them to let me look at alien bodys in area 51 ... because NO one knows ANYTHING except how to shrug their shoulders.



Well ... when ever they DO get here ... they've already announced the battery chemistry will be Nickel Metal hydride and not li-ion.

+11

The manufacturers need to keep improving the battery and hybrid technology so buyers don't need to pay too much more for a hybrid than conventional equivalent.

Sheesh. I thought GM was the only company that pulled stuff like this. This is very disappointing news. I've been looking forward to the Prius PHEV becoming available to the public. We've already had the whole discussion on Toyota having invested a lot of cash into the current HSD technology and wanting to make that "the standard" for the automobile industry, so I'll just simply remind everyone of that. I'm thinking that maybe Toyota, setting the trend (at least in the public's eyes, where other automakers are watching) is hoping that other automakers will follow hybrids instead of trying to create PHEVs. This will help Toyota's profitability and dominance in the mid-term, as they are the leader in hybrid technology. HOWEVER, Toyota cannot ignore the fact that other automakers have already announced electrics and PHEVs in the pipeline. Toyota needs to wake up and realize that TOYOTA needs to MOVE FORWARD into the next technology and become the leader in PHEV technology instead of playing GM and refusing to move forward to the next technology. (I hope Toyota is reading this)

Something I've mentioned before, and many at Priuschat may dislike me for saying this, but I think that in the *near* term, Toyota should market the PHEV as a specialty/novelty item and charge forty or fifty thousand dollars for it. It's going to be low production anyway, and they might as well make some profit off of it. (Consider the Acura NSX, Mitsubishi GTR, Toyota Supra, Corvette ZR1, Mercedes AMG, BMW M. These are all low production specialty/novelty vehicles. Toyota should make the PHEV Prius into the same thing (in the near term) to fund development and finance the vehicle's R&D). When people see one of these specialty vehicles, or a Tesla, they think "wow. neat." If Toyota charges $50K for a 2011 PHEV Prius, the public's view of it will become much more favorable. A big part of it is psychology. If it's expensive, it's favorable.)

Doug Coleman stated this regarding PHEV:

"As the brand manager for Prius, Coleman also has spent a lot of time talking to Prius owners, because he believes the same demographic will be the first to buy a plug-in car. “They’re not crazy with money. Even the people who are most passionate look for value. Or at least want to be able to see where they can get all their needs met,†he said. “It’s not just the pure technology.†Coleman said he would be “shocked†if Prius owners all jumped at plug-in hybrids. Some are going to love plugging in and others will never ever want to plug in."

If PriusChat forum members will not embace PHEV who will?

They have. They have risked their Pri' , thousands of dollars and lots of time to try plug in via third party plug in kits. They have spent from $2000 to $12000 from messages I have seen on kits that have varying ranges of power. Its clear if they are willing to go through this level of work to get a plug in that they will buy one for the price of a solar roof or greater.

There is a market for plug ins, I would estimate with a price range as high as $8000 over the non plug in price. At $3000 it will become a mass market item.

hampdenwireless,

Is it possible to set up a poll to get an idea how many PriusChat forum members would consider a PHEV?

"Coleman said he would be “shocked†if Prius owners all jumped at plug-in hybrids."

At this rate, I'll have my hands on an EV (Nissan Leaf) before I can get my hands on a PHEV (Toyota Prius).

Don't forget the extra money it is going to cost you to put a new body on the car that doesn't look like it's something out of a Japanese anime comic book.

Prius did not become acceptable in the US because of PriusChat, but because of $4/gallon fuel. OTOH, PriusChat (and other enthusiast sites) *did* and do facilitate a high owner satisfaction.

Toyota is hamstrung until fuel costs rise enough. The same will be true of the other *EV early announcements from Nissan, Ford etc.

"According to Nikkei, Toyota's plug-ins will run 12 to 18 miles on battery power alone at full charge, and will cost about $48,000."

And due to competition, Toyota producing PHEVs will be a sure thing:

"Announcements about plug-ins have gained momentum in the past few weeks. General Motors said it’s on track to introduce the Chevy Volt plug-in hybrid sedan in late 2010, followed by a plug-in sport-utility vehicle in 2011. Hyundai plans to have a plug-in hybrid on sale by late 2012. Volvo said that its plug-in hybrid will be “a reality†by 2012. Toyota will begin commercial production of plug-in hybrids in 2012, producing between 20,000 and 30,000 units in the first year, according to media reports.

"Hyundai said the Blue-Will will get an estimated 50 to 55 mpg in the hybrid-electric mode and can travel about 38 miles in electric-only mode. .We're going after Prius and the Volt with the plug-in," said Woong-chul."
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center-article_214/

I love my 2008 Prius. My only beef is that on short distances -go to store for milk? - it burns too much gas. There is too much yap about battery technology etc. Give my Prius a 60-80 km (40-60 mile) EV range with 8 hr (overnight recharge) and voila, you would have the perfect car - with existing technology - for 90 % of drivers for 100% of their driving needs. So the little engine - that could - comes on during long trips. Who cares! Did anyone remember the first cell phone? It looked like a bloody BRICK! We do not have the battery and the infrastructure for pure EVs travelling long distances.
So let's stop agonizing over it! Let the chemists work the problem out. In the meanwhile PEVs (DIESEL/Electric?) will rule the world for the next 10+ years. If Mr.Toyoda does not wake up, Toyota will loose its edge. It is utterly stupid from Toyota not to offer PEV upgrades to the over a million Prius owners for say $3-5000 who LOVE their cars. We would test their new technology - on the road, under real driving conditions for free. What a marketing opportunity! Are these guys asleep!

Yes, I would spend between $3-5K to convert my 2008 to a PEV and maintain my warranty. For this offer I would work with Toyota to 'get the bugs out'.

Maybe my next car will be a Ford. (I owned a Ford Cortina - BRRRRRRRR! - but the world has changed.)

This is one of the key points that's never ever discussed in all the techno-wish lists. Can the auto makers offer the same warranties on the Li-Ion PHEVs that they can on the ultra-reliable NiMH HEVs? Nobody has said a word on this subject; not Toyota, not Nissan, not GM, not Hyundai...nobody.


My own opinion is that the PHEV Prius will be a super niche vehicle at a significant premium to the standard Prius V for those that want such technology. This will be no different than offering a Prius V for those that want more features as compared to a Prius II for those that have no use for those features. Everyone is satisfied.

It's not a matter of "can". They will do it because it's required by law.

8 years / 100k miles for the Federal emissions warranty and 10 years / 150k miles for CARB states.

Toyota should offer the standard PHEV models with NiMH, and then offer a special "Lithium" edition with Li-Ion for a 6K premium. At least for now. The masses can have their NiMH PHEVs, and the few that enjoy spending their money can be our lab rats for the Li-Ions.

That is exactly how I feel and why I gave you a "thank you" under that post. I posted about a week or so ago that my ideal car would be a Porsche Carrera PHEV that obtained the MPG of a PHEV Prius as long as I drove with the flow of traffic, but if I decided I wanted a little more power every once in a while, it would be able to put out 300hp. And if while hypermiling the battery eventually runs out, I will still have a backup so that I can make it to my destination. The man on this forum that owns a pure EV Porsche replied "why wouldn't you want a pure electric???" The simple answer to that, as much as you may not like it, is that I don't want a pure electric in this decade. I want a PHEV. I want an EV/PHEV as long as I drive with the flow of traffic, but will be capable of being a 300hp sports car when I want it to be. And if I decide to drive up to the mountains for the weekend to go camping, I won't be tied down to an extension cord. In the future, things might change if battery cars can go 500 miles. I often drive more than 100 miles in a day. I like to drive. I like to go on trips. My 2004 Corolla has 119,000 miles on it right now. On my last tank of gasoline, I got 37mpg average, so those miles conserve fuel, but I like to drive and go places and do things with my life! Sometimes on a Friday evening I get a "spur of the moment" and decide to drive to another state and enjoy "the open road" and visiting national parks and enjoying the natural scenery of earth's geology. I need a car that can "keep going and going" on those trips. EV alone will not suffice. I need to be able to drop 500 miles into my car's energy reservoir (this is an additional reason (in addition to preventing global warming during my weekday commutes to work) that I am currently considering a 2010 Prius. I'm probably going to wait for the PHEV version though).
The 2010 Prius will go (50mpg)(12gal)=600miles.