look for the pork that's added to the bill, I'll bet that's the big reason for this bill.

So I stumbled across this from Google trying to do research and signed up for this site so I could ask you a question.

What's wrong with adding some noise to a hybrid car to protect blind people? I know I would find it difficult enough navigating crosswalks while blind. Would this measure take away from your love of your car? I am not trying to be wise, just want to see what the deal is.

PS - I don't own a hybrid, but hope to be a future Prius owner when I can afford to.

Representatives Edolphus Towns and Cliff Stearns have undergone what I call cranial-rectal inversion surgery which leads to occtoreculitis. This is a nondenominational disease and does not only effect Congress people but it is prevalent in this group. This is a simplified argument todays cars are extremely quite and thus hard to hear in any case. The noise most people probably hear are the aggressively threaded tire before they ever hear the engine. The last time I checked Hybrids still ride on tires which makes them as noisy as any other car on the road when approaching a pedestrian. In most case due to the engine enclosures on todays cars and the Doppler affect you hardly hear the engines of approaching cars unless they have what is commonly call, on the street a fart can muffler. So as usual the Representives, Edolphus Towns and Cliff Stearns are wasting our hard earned money.

Hi Charlie, welcome to Priuschat!
The issue here, is that it is a red herring. A non-issue. Statistics show that car-pedestrian fatalities tend to occur with large, noisy vehicles, such as pickups and transit buses.
Most newer vehicles, not just hybrids, are very quiet when approaching, due to advanced engine design. Tire noise is often all that is heard. That said, most blind people who often cross streets are very well versed in listening for tire noise, and/or use dogs for assistance.
If you look at accident statistics, most car-pedestrian mishaps are sighted people who aren't paying any attention AND drivers who are not paying attention, such as backing up in parking lots without looking for people walking.
The "bell the hybrid" seems to have been started by special interest groups that are more interested in shutting down fuel efficient vehicles. "Follow the money" is always a good idea.

That said, do enjoy your time here at priuschat! :welcome:
There is so much to read, learn, ask questions... we even have some humorous postings around here!

Here is the official answer that I came up with, and include in my FAQ.

"Q: Aren't electric vehicles so quiet as to be a hazard to the blind?
A:Electric vehicles are most certainly not silent. At parking lot speeds they make as much noise via various fans, pumps, and tire noise as most modern ICE vehicles. At high speeds the wind and tire noise is comparable to any car. And like so many other issues surrounding the EV, this "problem" was addressed years ago. The EV1 had a back-up warning, as well as a pedestrian alert that could be volunteered by the driver when needed.

Adding an additional constant noise to the cars would only serve to increase ambient noise levels, subsequently lowering individual awareness. By making all cars quiet, we would be safer than by making quiet cars louder. Ultimately it's the driver's responsibility to operate any vehicle safely."

And let me add to my official answer. If we really want to keep people safe, we put our effort and money into getting gasoline cars off the road. Tens of thousands of people (sighted, deaf, blind, doesn't matter) die every year from the pollution that gasoline cars produce. These people don't even have to be near a road to die. Other people die protecting our oil rights. No blind people have died because of quiet cars. Thousands die from the ones that might make more noise. Where should we put our effort?

It isn't that we want to kill blind people. We just see this as a solution in search of a problem (or extra pork as others have pointed out). If the blind need sound-makers on cars to be safe, then we should also but Xenon strobe lights on all cars to keep the deaf safe? It is the job of the driver not to run over *anybody* no matter how disabled they may be.

I hope the day soon arrives when is seems like a waste of money to buy a "standard" gasoline car.

I will just add one caveat to what Darell and others have said: gas cars do make a distinctive noise when starting, which EVs and some hybrids do not, and this poses a special consideration when backing out of blind parking lot spaces. I think a back-up beeper audible outside the car (as in my Xebra, but not my Prius) is a good idea. I activate my Xebra's backup beeper any time a pedestrian is near, or if I cannot see beyond a car parked nearby, when backing out of a blind parking slot.

But then, backup beepers would probably be a good idea on all vehicles.

Daniel -

Ok, I guess I'll spot you the caveat. But you did notice that it was part of my official FAQ, right? I too, think that a driver-operated alert device is a great idea. There are many times that would be useful - even when walking, biking, driving... pushing a shopping cart down the isles of the supermarket!

I still contend that if all autos were quiet, that you could even hear the electrics start up. And you can CERTAINLY hear the tires rolling on pavement. The reason we can't hear this stuff now is because of all the noise pollution from the other cars.

If you're spending all your time pulling drowning children out of the river, you may want to take a moment to walk upstream and figure out who's throwing them in.

My Xebra makes no other sound when I start it than the click of the key in the switch, and that is not audible from outside. The tires make the usual tire noise (or 3/4 the normal amount) but the backup beeper gives pedestrians warning that I am about to begin moving out of my parking space.

BTW, some Xebra owners routinely disable the backup beeper because the sound of it is obnoxious. I instead put it on a switch. I don't use it if I can clearly see that there is nobody about. I use it if there are blind areas, and I use it if I see someone anywhere behind me.

Hi Charlie,

1. No accident data showing there is a hazard from hybrid cars - We looked through the available data for over 500,000 hybrids in the USA since 2000 and can not find any accident data that shows they are a hazard. We started with the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's (NHTSA) Fatality Accident Reporting System (FARS) and between 2002-2006, the only years available last summer, we could find no evidence of a Prius killing a blind pedestrian nor of the Prius having a higher pedestrian accident rate than ordinary cars.
2. Only 5 blind die each year out of 4,700 pedestrian deaths - By focusing on just the blind, the other 4,695 pedestrians, many whom are tax payers and not dependent upon assistance for the blind, are condemned to be ignored. When I walk our family dog, I'm am a sighted pedestrian and adding a noise maker does not improve my chance of survival from a car-pedestrian accident or even reduce my risk.
3. Adding noise to a noisy environment does not work - The most stunning example was the Three Mile Island disaster when the noise alarm about low water level joined the catcaphony of other alarms that overloaded the operators. Had the operators realized they needed to address the water level, the reactor would not have been damaged. Adding noise to a noisy environment is also called the 'cocktail party effect' because it escallates the other noise makers. Pretty soon, no one can understand anything because "my noise is more important than yours!"
4. Does not involve the driver who has the steering and brakes - The hybrid driver, like drivers of today's cars, has no additional information that a blind person or a small toddler or an elderly adult or any physically impared pedestrian is in the area. It is the driver who has the steering wheel, brakes, accelerator and horn and if informed there is a blind person in the area can take extra caution. This proposed, one-way noise maker leaves the driver out of the loop and begs the question, which way does the blnid person jump when they hear the synthetic noise maker?
5. Aborts universal collision avoidance systems - At this year's Detroit Auto Show, I saw the Denso collision avoidance system picking out pedestrians on the street, actually identifying them as special hazards. Also, Volvo has their pedestrian avoidance system that is available in their top models. This type of technical solution handles the tired driver, the blind with a head cold, and the problem of human error. It is time that cameras, short range radars, and computers take over this critical safety function ... 4,700 deaths per year past time. But this law, as does your question, says it must be a noise maker.
6. Noise makers are what we have today killing 4,700 per year - The noise of todays cars are already killing too many pedestrians. It is time to recognize noise doesn't work.
7. Aborts making cars safer in pedestrian accidents - In Europe, they rate cars by how much risk they impose on a pedestrian at 25 mph. This is leading to improved bumpers, hoods and other construction so if someone, either an adult or child, is hit, they don't die or suffer any worse injury than necessary. We have seat belts and air bags not to prevent accidents but to reduce deaths and injury. This is a sensible approach that applies to all vehicles, not just hybrids.

BTW, welcome to PriusChat and I hope you've gained some insight. If you need backup information, I would recommend starting with the NHTSA June 23 record:

www.regulations.gov - search for NHTSA-2008-0108-0020 for opposition reports with the facts and data

I attended the June 23 hearing and the official record is mostly complete. You can search for "NHTSA-2008-0108" for the other submissions with just two omissions. I had to file a Freedom Of Information Access (FOIA) request to get:

• NHTSA charts omitted from the Elsie presentation showing they have no accident data showing there is a hazard. You had to be there to get that chart or file a FOIA request, like I did.
• NHTSA has no data showing a hybrid hazard and have started looking in the State accident records to see if there is any evidence of more injuries. BTW, when the equivalent California legislation came up, their director of traffic safety reported they had no such data either.

So what we have here is a bill based upon a lie that panders to the blind and mandates by law, not science or engineering, one solution, the "noise maker." At best it means the last thing a blind person might hear is the faux noise maker just before they are crushed to death.

Bob Wilson

ps. If you are from Washington DC, it is a shame you didn't have a chance to attend the June 23 hearing. Although I disagree profoundly with this bill, I enjoyed meeting many of the folks there including a blind gentleman sitting behind me. When I went for a cuppa coffee, I brought one back for him too. I hope to meet him again someday.

Humour?
Humour?
Who is being humorous on PriusChat?
We gotta shut them bas****s down!!

What is happening to prevent people walking the streets in an auditorily compromised state? You know the ones, them long haired young people walking and riding bicycles n them skate board thingos with white wires hangin' out their ears. That nonsense wouldn't have happened in my day!

What will law makers do to remove the in ear headphones from those young people so they can hear the sounds of "thunderstruck" or "Greensleeves" or even the sound of a 1980s turbo-charged 1.5 litre V10 F1 engine at full power belting out from my front bumper?

Not much point making all that noise, making the city even less bearable as a living space if those young people won't be able to hear it. Of course they won't ban the iPod, Apple is a big powerful corporation and their Christmas sales are vital to the retail sector.

Now I propose a new campaign, Bell the Rolls Royce and Bell that Cadillac! Isn't quietness one of their marketing points?

Another approach, silence the city, how about that idea? Of course that would not benefit the deaf.

Oh you're gonna get rabidly attacked. You've entered the cult zone where people want to bell the blind rather than the Prius. I don't know why they hate blind people so much

Actually I'm wondering why you hate the blind so much that you would give them a placebo:

If we hated them, we would walk away and never worry about it again:

"Officer this is terrible. My noise maker is working perfectly, you can hear it now. I can't explain why they jumped in front of me."

The crushed, broken former deaf pedestrian would be "dead right." Just like the cigarette warnings protect the tobacco companies from law suits, the 'faux noise maker' protects the hybrid electric owner ... bump bump. The problem with a placebo is it tastes sweet but has a bitter end.

Bob Wilson

Wow. You've gotten NOTHING out of what we've been saying? Why is it that you hate humanity so much?

Yeah, I'd much rather have a noise maker so I could stop paying attention around pedestrians.

Yeah, how about mandating all deaf people wearing a 360-degree camera that collect headlights from all directions? Or mandating diesel powered subwoofers that vibrate at 20 Hz so that people feel it by chest?

Hi Charlie,

Because it would not protect blind people, it would endanger them. Its noise polution that makes a blind person blind in traffic. Put 5 Prius with noise makers at an intersection, and it would be an audio confusion for all.

Of the people on here, I think I am the only person who has had an experiece with a blind pedestrian (red and white cane) passing by my car closely. He was apparently drunk (October Fest tent a block away, and totering), and had almost been hit by other drivers in the oncomming lane. As I passed behind him, he could not tell where I was because of the caucophony of 20 engines in the oncomming lane, in cars that were now accellerating away after pausing for him to pass in front of them. He stopped, and made a step back torwards my car (in the same direction as the other 20 cars going the other way), then felt the wind of my car and then froze. My car's engine was running. So, at that moment, it was just as noisey as any other smaller car on the road.

There is a belief by the uninformed who are pushing this at congress that Hybrids do not make noise. But listen to oncomming cars while you walk down the street someday. Allot of cars are silent, except for their tires, as they approach. Exhausts are out the back of cars. So, you do not hear them unless the exhaust is modified, damaged, or its a very large vehicle as the vehicle approaches. Its only after the vehicles passes one hears the exhaust. Now all hybrid cars roll on tires. And those tires are just as noisey as any other car.

Indeed, the arguement can be made that the more hybrids (without noise makers) there are, the less the ambient engine noise will be and the better the blind will able to hear oncomming vehicles.

I personally think that the danger to blind people is a pretense, beside the truck/suv/oil forces. For some people, out of tradition and resistance to new things, they just hate hybrids, especially prius, sneaking up behind them and give them a startle in parking lots. Out of self discipline, I always walking the side of the aisle, but many people are more carried away with cellphone, a fun conversation or the "white wires out of their ears". But apparently they are happier and more relaxed than me most of the time, so I don't blame them.

The fun facts is that the proponents did not say anything about their fear, but instead using blind people as a decoy -- who can oppose to protecting disabled/impaired people in a good world?

I got real fear when at the end of the sport lesson in the evening, there are six cars with white backup lights on, but nobody makes the first move, and 90% of them are SUVs or minivans. I don't know whose foot is going to slip. So I parked far away so I do not have to walk my kid between them.