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Traction Battery Replacement Choices

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by SageBrush, Sep 5, 2014.

  1. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    As each new thread comes up of an owner faced with a failed traction battery, we discuss the options of new, refurbished, or remanufactured. As the markets change and supplies relative to demand fluctuate, the choices vary in attractiveness. So an ongoing discussion is always timely.

    Circa late 2014, the situation for Gen2 owners is that used G2 modules tend to be poor quality, and lightly used G3 packs are in short supply -- meaning either snatched up by businesses or expensive. New packs from Toyota are not much more expensive than remanufactured from reliable vendors which would I think make that a preferred first choice, but those packs have now been sitting on a shelf for close to 5 years.

    All this said, I suggest another option: buy a new Gen3 pack from an online Toyota reseller and swap the modules into the existing G2 case. This approach has the advantage of using new modules that can be expected to have a new car life and not require re-balancing. Most of us are probably not too keen to do the module swap ourselves but starting from battery+shipping of ~ 2200, an independent might be willing to do the swap and install for $300 making the total price ~ $2500 for an honest, brand spanking new, no compromise replacement.
     
    #1 SageBrush, Sep 5, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2014
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  2. JC91006

    JC91006 Senior Member

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    Todd at Tampaprius.com has them for $2000 installed.......these are brand new from Toyota and carry Toyota's 1 year warranty.

    If Todd can buy them and resell them for a profit at $2000.....maybe the cost of these things are soon to be coming down for the rest of the people? Can this be Toyota's plan in helping the aging batteries from the past decade? They would surely have the extra capacity in the production of these Gen3 modules once Gen4 comes out with the Lithium packs.
     
    #2 JC91006, Sep 5, 2014
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  3. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    This is from his web-site:
    My bolding. I presume he means a new Gen2 pack.
     
    #3 SageBrush, Sep 5, 2014
  4. JC91006

    JC91006 Senior Member

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    He posted a listing on PC a day ago for 5 units at $2000, yes for Gen2. My mistake on the Gen3 error.....but basically the same thing as the Gen3's aren't really failing yet and they both contain 28 modules.

    If you are a DIYer, you can currently buy the Gen2 battery from Camelback Toyota for around $1900
     
    #4 JC91006, Sep 5, 2014
  5. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    I'm not sure what you mean here. My underlying point is that I am skeptical of the value of Gen2 modules in whatever format they are being offered, new or otherwise. Well, at least at current prices that is.

    As for Camelback, they are charging 2174.00. Thanks for the data point for my other thread :)
     
    #5 SageBrush, Sep 6, 2014
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2014
  6. JC91006

    JC91006 Senior Member

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    When and if the Gen4 Prius arrives with the Lithium packs, the price of the Gen2 and Gen3 packs should drop in price. Maybe enough so to put some of the rebuilders out of business as there wouldn't be a need to buy an unreliable rebuilt pack, just go straight to Toyota for an affordable new reliable pack.

    If I were Toyota, that's what I would do with my extra capacity in production. Ease new car buyers with affordable solutions for future replacements and bringing the battery replacement business to Toyota and Toyota only for the 1 million+ Prius cars on the road.
     
    #6 JC91006, Sep 6, 2014
  7. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    I understand now.

    The G3 pack is already being sold for under $2000. I sincerely doubt Toyota is going to produce any new G2 packs, so this is the emerging conundrum for G2 owners: pay new pack prices for old stock ?
     
    #7 SageBrush, Sep 6, 2014
  8. JC91006

    JC91006 Senior Member

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    Why wouldn't Toyota build new G2 packs? Those are going to be in very high demand as the Gen2's reach the decade mark and the engine and transaxle's holding up quite well.

    Toyota is very good at inventory control, they would build Gen2 packs as needed, maybe with Gen3 modules
     
    #8 JC91006, Sep 6, 2014
  9. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    ^^ My short answer is that Toyota is in the business of selling new cars. Parts are an obligation required by law and to keep up their reputation. While you and I may want a great, cheap, new traction battery for our 15 year old cars, Toyota and the larger world are not really interested.

    I think the best we can hope for is that Toyota sells modules to rebuilders. In the meantime we have a not bad alternative as I outline above.
     
    #9 SageBrush, Sep 6, 2014
  10. JC91006

    JC91006 Senior Member

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    I disagree with this comment. The larger world would care a lot if the battery replacement cost is removed from the buying decision. If the price point can be brought down to $1000 for a new battery, they would sell 300,000 units a year because the biggest fear in hybrids would be removed.
     
    #10 JC91006, Sep 6, 2014
  11. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    I should have clarified my earlier comment about the larger world. I meant that new car buyers will not ding Toyota for not supporting 15 year old cars with cheap replacement parts.
     
    #11 SageBrush, Sep 6, 2014
  12. kiwi

    kiwi Member

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    No one will argue that the NEW battery pack is better than the old, re-build, reconditioned, or whatever black magic has been applied to it. That is why NEW cost more and comes with the warranty,

    • BUT NEW is better ONLY and IF when that PACK comes with a STICKER attached to it, stipulating the following:
    1. Date of manufacture. If less than 6 month - that sounds good enough. If manufactured long time ago, one may wonder whether it was maintained, charged and stored properly and whether it retains the same designed capacity (about 6.5Ah in Prius). With the older pack we would be curious to see another number on the sticker:
    2. Measured Full Charged Capacity and
    3. Maximum Voltage difference at the low level under load (e.g. 7V per module or 14V per pair).
    Example: Local Dealer is offering 38 Module Prius NHW-11 packs for sale as "brand sparking new" with a 1 year warranty (when installed by them) at a price of $4000 NZD ($3300USD) + labour. Unfortunately they are not interested in testing those for capacity (even for free) and are not willing to confirm whether plastic modules are inside or whether the new silver side modules have been used.

    FYI: plastic ones, known to be leaky in NHW-11 Prius have not been manufactured for more than a year now. Assuming still plenty in storage with reduced capacity up for grabs as "sparking new".

    Questions remain unanswered:
    • What if the Full Charge Capacity (FCC) in those "new" has degraded and is only, say about 4Ah? What if even less?
    • What if that 1 year warranty is actually a true reflection of the estimated lifespan of that NEW pack with (pretty much sure) reduced capacity?
    • Then how the asking price of $3300 USD plus labour could be more attractive in comparison to the rebuild battery from the second hand newer silver side modules with 5AH left in it?
    Situation with reconditioned and rebuild packs seems to be no better.
    Those who offer reconditioning/recharging technology have not being bothered to disclose to the customer:
    • Measured Full Charge Capacity and
    • Maximum Voltage Difference at the low level under load.
    FYI: Voltage Difference at low level under load is important to know. When it is above certain threshold (depend on a car model) - the error code will tell you "Battery Voltage is Uneven". With reduced capacity this parameter becomes more critical.

    To know more about High Voltage battery Capacity Analyser please visit Testing Complex - HYBRIDS
     
    #12 kiwi, Sep 8, 2014
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