Utilities Cry "Unfair"!

Sounds related to EV drivers beware, ALEC is coming for your solar power and ALEC calls for penalties on “free rider” solar-panel owners | Grist.

 

We have similar problems here. The incentive tariff used to be 65c per kwh now it's been reduced to 8c. Grid connected solar here cannot be used for standalone, and when power goes out on the grid our systems automatically shut down. Some bullshit about safety, but surely they could design an automatic grid disconnect as easily as a shutdown?
Anyway the incentive program has more to do with whether a right wing or left wing government is in power than economics or science.

The loony right isn't even consistent in their philosophy. Solar users are retailers/wholesalers in their own right and should have the same price negotiating power as any other contractor. If solar retailers are to be punished for not having built the network in the first place then they could band together and build their own (duplicate) networks on local scales competing with expensive coal. This could be twinned with battery banks or alternate power sources such as gas for overnight load.

 

I blew a fuse last week (figuratively speaking) as an article stated I will have to start paying VAT ('sales tax') on the electricity I supply to the grid. EVEN WHEN NOT SUPPLYING IT BACK BUT USING IT MYSELF.
The article had far too few details, but in Europe, this IS going to happen, just not for small scale producers like me.

Why you would ever pay tax over home-generated energy you use yourself wasn't explained, but that was the part that got me furious. Pretty stupid getting furious over something you know far too little details about, but it got me ranting what they were going to tax next: probably the energy your bicycle dynamo supplies to your headlight...

Mind you, I have no feed in tariff, my meter just runs backwards (at ~25eurocents per kWh). That should have been 30ct by now (which would make my solarpanels much more viable) but the government, distribution-company and the electricity companies made a pact to move large chunks of costs to the fixed yearly sum you have to pay ("it's cheaper") instead of keeping it in the price per kWh (which would obviously make people buy more solarpanels).

It just gets clearer and clearer that the government isn't there to serve me, but itself.

I have made calculations in the past if I could simply go off-grid in one of the most densily populated countries in the world with one of the best electricity grids. The break even point is not that far off...

 

Probably because we are so close to Asia, but we have these nifty little LED head lights here! No more dynamos rubbing the heck out of the side of your tyre.

Actually the government is there to serve the big globals.

 

It was Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger who pushed through a bill that forced SoCal Edison to pay for PV solar surplus. So please don't make this a right verses left thing. Both parties are equally corrupt and dempublicans play the other side against each other to keep status quo. If folks focus on the op rather play the blame game - perhaps the utility company can be reigned in.
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BE FAIR: "We don't care where or who we buy the power from, but it should be purchased at the wholesale price."

If the utility can buy electricity for 10 cents/KWh from a coal, natural gas, hydro, or solar supplier, why should they be forced to pay 15 cents to the solar supplier who just happens to own a house? The payment plan should be 10 cents regardless of who supplies the electric. That's fairness & equality.

 

In Southern California, the utility pays less than 4 cents per KWh for excess solar energy. They charge customers about 13 cents per KWh at the lowest tier. I doubt their wholesale cost of purchasing electricity is close to 4 cents. I am told that the 4 cent figure is the amount of savings to the utility for not having to provide the energy to the house with solar.

 

Actually, SoCal residential PV surplus providers get paid less than three cents. We get paid a paltry 2.9 cents/kWh and surplus PV only gets generated during mid-day when electricity is at a premium. But it's even worse than that. If I generate so much surplus in a given month - my account gets a credit for electricity at roughly tier4 - 42 cents/kWh. In June long daylight hours we might deliver 450kWh's of surplus for the month - theoretically a tier4 value of $180. By the way you have to generate a lot of surplus to offset more than all of your night time use - so Edison is getting a huge daytime benefit. But at the end of the year that surplus will be in reality, paid out at $13 ... which is representative of the wholesale 2.9 cent rate. Not complaining ... Just wanting to show how Edison is crying much ado about nothing.

IMO, SCE is simply trying manipulate public opinion so that the public utility commission can hopefully vote/overturn the legislation of having to pay for solar supply surplus. I'm guessing ... but it looks like SCE really hates the monopoly loss. SCE won't pick on commercial solar because their lobby can defend their self pretty well. The shmuck residential folk ... They are an easier victim in the eyes of the utility.
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I recall similar issues years ago when towns were building trash-to-steam plants, also companies were building natural gas cogen facilities. There was always conflicts with the state/utilities who often wanted to have control of the power generation. So the company cogen's had to be small and the trash-to-steam pay back seemed too low. And then SCE subsidiary would come in - yes to the east coast - and recommend a coal-fired power plant in my backyard, and the state and utilities just loved that idea. But we held them off as best we could. Now with the changes in electric markets structure I am not sure the same old conflicts apply. Seems like there should be an equitable solution.

 

Absolutely Wrong.

Solar panels are different from the other power plants you mentioned, and they all service their respective grid loads differently.

The payment should NOT be 10 cents "regardless" of who it is, because there are huge difference between them.

COAL: can NOT be throttled up rapidly; is located FAR from load centers; produces high emissions, especially upon startup; has low (but non-zero) marginal costs per kwh

NAT. GAS: CAN be started up rapidly, but this worsens emissions; is non-renewable; still puts out GHG's especially methane leaks from fracking; has high marginal costs, including wear & tear on boilers; is located relatively closer to load centers, but still far from individual neighborhoods

HYDRO: CAN be started up rapidly, but this lowers reservoir level making it less useful for extreme peak loads (and thus possibly requiring Nat. Gas backup anyhow); is not available during drought conditions (which often coincide with high grid loading due to A/C use); is renewable and produced minimal GHG's but is only available in large quantities in certain parts of the countries (particularly the northwest); FAR away from load centers

CENTRAL SOLAR: can NOT be started on demand or rapidly; does coincide with electric power demand bell curves; is renewable with no GHG's; under control of central utility as opposed to homeowner; located FAR from grid loads

RESIDENTIAL ROOFTOP SOLAR:

(1) Is renewable
(2) Produces no GHG's
(3) Is located RIGHT AT the demand source (the home itself or nearby homes/business running A/C)
(4) Give control to owner.....whether to sell to grid, store in battery, charge an EV, etc.
(5) Produces peak energy during peak sunshine.....which just happens to coincide with peak grid loading due to A/C use, especially residential A/C use......the particular house with solar roofs may not be using A/C, but another house in the neighborhood/vicinity probably will be, meaning overall stress on the grid is lessened
(6) the energy used by homeowner at night is worth much less than the energy their solar panels provide during the day......even a cursory glance at energy supply & demand curves would make this obvious
(7) Has ZERO marginal costs

Saying that "everyone should pay $.xx/ xx" might make you feel good (and sound good to those who subscribe to the politics of grievance of how everything new in this country is somehow rigged or a scam, etc.), but it makes ZERO empirical sense to look at price only without looking at:
(1) WHAT is producing the power
(2) WHERE it is located
(3) WHEN it produces power
(4) HOW much power it produces, and at what cost (including external, environmental costs)

Or, perhaps this way of thinking is simply emblematic of fear and/or envy of anything new. Either way, be advised that you are playing right into the hands of ALEC.

I'll quote from the article, because I couldn't have said it better:

"Solar customers give much more valuable peak power to utilities for free during the day than they get back at night," said John Berger, CEO and founder of solar energy provider Sunnova. "Utilities are like socialist monopolies.They don't provide good service or pricing."

 

The battle above could be considered R vs. D, or Corporation vs. Individual, or Solar vs. Fossil fuel. That's the wrong viewpoint. The right viewpoint is government responsibilities vs. individual rights.

The government will do more damage fighting economics than harnessing economics. The government can fail in two completely different ways.

1) Trying to control the economics of solar power by setting rates (deciding on winner and losers based on politics, not economics).
2) Trying to turn self sufficiency into a taxable activity (deciding that "power" can be taxed instead of the "sale of power", two very different things).

 

It doesn't take long, does it?
We are here talking about home-provided solar energy, and whether or not utilities should pay retail for it.
But, some people have to trot out their favorite BOGEYMAN, the BIG BAD Government!!
Watch out! The government is out to get you! It's looking out for only itself! It's kowtowing to Big Globals!
LOL.....it is truly sad, especially since both of you live in democracies.

Listen, I always tell people if you have a problem with the government, you have 2 options: (1) VOTE (or take even more aggressive civic action) or (2) Seek mental-health therapy

Naahhhh.......they're not equally corrupt...not even close. Apparently, the big global corporations have done a pretty good job of making you cynical about our political parties, along with millions of others. It's the 'ol "divide & conquer" strategy.

With folks like you crying "A pox on both their houses", organizations like ALEC will rob and beat you and millions of other Americans blind. The big corporate types (Koch Brothers, etc.) will be laughing all the way to the bank. They pull the same stuff over and over, and you guys fall for it over and over. When will you learn?

The corporate interests are the ones driving this agenda against distributed energy in general (and solar roofs in particular) because it threatens their central, monopolistic way of doing things. But they are very careful to cover their tracks........and it is apparently working, since the've gotten many of you to blame "the Government" instead of them