Discussion in 'Toyota Prius Plug-in' started by Dark_Prius, Apr 28, 2012.
Because I want one.
Excellent and concise response. I only disagree with #4. I like my silver. Being a part of #6 is very important to me. Others have mentioned the HOV stickers for those of us in California. Actually, given the Fed + State (at least in CA) tax credits, the real question should be "Why would anyone considering a regular Prius not buy a Plug-In?"
I expect that, by the time my 2004 Prius (now with a whopping 64,000 miles on it) must be replaced, battery technology in plug-in hybrids will be well demonstrated and debugged. Since my household uses non-fossil electricity sources driving a PiP would be a further reduction in my contribution to global warming.
People disappointed by the rate of development of battery technology should be prepared for continuing disappointment. It's just basically a really hard problem. Physics and chemistry say it is unlikely that the energy density and power density of chemical batteries will ever approach, never mind equal, that of liquid hydrocarbon fuels. Happily, liquid hydrocarbon fuels do not have to be made from petroleum or other sources of fossil carbon; see below.
Well, if you live in a state like NY that offers no credits or incentives, and your tax liability is significantly less than the federal credit, and the dealers are marking the PiP up about a grand... then the plain ole Prius is worth considering!
By "Green Freedom" gasoline I meant this:
As you point out corn ethanol fuel is a net energy loser. Ethanol made from any organic source can never meet more than a fraction of world fuel demand, and liquid fuels made from coal or natural gas are even worse for global warming than are petroleum based liquid fuels.
Many of the same fanatics who bought Priuses in 2004 with no hope of a payback on their total costs of ownership would happily pay a big premium on their fuel costs for the sake of going non-fossil without the huge capital outlay and operational limitations of a purely electric vehicle.
I skimmed this study, and it made me wonder about the general methodology that seems to be universal in these studies:
The input btus are added up, and compared to the output btu.
However, alternative lifecylcles of the source energies are not considered.
One example (contrived numbers): one kwh of NG is input, 1.34 kwh of Etoh is obtained.
The etoh is combusted in ICEs ranging from 15 - 35% efficient, for a work efficiency of 0.15*1.34 - 0.35*1.34 = 0.2 - 0.47
Now lets say that one kwh of NG was burned in a CCGT plant at 60% efficiency, transmitted with 7% losses, and the electricity used in a battery car that has 85% efficiency. Then the work efficiency is 0.93*0.6*.85 = 0.4743.
Now, even using the most optimistic Etoh lifecycle, it is inferior to a competing (and operational!) use of the source.
I do not think that it would take $20/gal. A Federal gas tax of $4/gal, phased in over 10 years, would change an awful lot of personal decisions including vehicle purchased, willingness to commute long distances, etc. Please read any of the recent books by Lester R. Brown (World on the Edge or Plan B 4.0). We have terrible political leadership when it comes to energy policy. The problem is that Americans grew up with cheap gas and think it is their God-given right to always have it. We have had misguided, pandering candidates for President "guaranteeing" a return to $2/gal gas, even though we are now in a world market, increasingly dominated by the billions of people in Asia who have never been able to buy any car until now. Long before we get to $20/gal (read the book by Christopher Steiner), the majority of Americans will be buying a high mpg hybrid or plug-in hybrid or electric vehicle. It is only a matter of getting the vehicle cost down and the fuel price up. Remember the first flat panel TV you ever saw? I remember them costing $20,000 for a 40 inch model.
1. Using photovoltaics or small hydro you can make your own electricity.
2. More efficient and quiet operation.
3. Longer ICE life.
4. What about emissions?
The HOV sticker will give me an estimated 260 hours extra per year to spend with my family (and 260 hours less in the car). The little bit of EV is an added bonus.
and they say you can't buy time. ha!
I really can not see why anyone in California considering a Prius wouldn't get a PiP. It is a 'no-brainer'!
Yep! I can only charge at work for now and will probably end up getting one.
And don't forget messing with the big oil companies - at least a little bit!
The chicks really dig it. I drive mine around with my Mr. Microphone ("Hey good lookin'... we'll be back to pick you up later!")...it's an irresistible combination...
LOL, i remember that commercial. looks bad now!
I wanted one, got one, very happy with it
Err... many might "consider", but when it comes to actually buying, I wouldn't (for now) due to the price premium over the regular Prius and electricity being not that cheap here.
For those who live in apartments or other places where they can't charge, I can't see why any of them would consider it unless they're buying for the HOV sticker benefit.
When I start working again, if I need to go to/from during rush hour, having HOV stickers on those routes actually helps and the Leaf's range wouldn't work for me, I'd consider replacing my 06 Prius w/a PiP. Otherwise, I plan to lease a Leaf as a 2nd car, not so much because of the stickers but because I want a Leaf.
I live in a high rise apartment where there is an outlet next to my parking spot. But the land lord wants to charge me $15.00 a month to charge. He doesn't trust me that I would keep records when I charge. So I told him I would let him know when I decide to charge my pip on an ongoing basis. because Charge Point a couple of miles away is still free.
Be careful about your EVSE (charging cordset) being stolen if you leave it out in the open. They're not cheap to replace.
Another reason why folks considering a Prius and not buying a PiP is just that the PiP could be out of their budget. I helped a friend of mine buy an '11 Prius at the end of 2011. The PiP wasn't for sale back then but the Prius Two was already beyond her original budget upper bound. She also doesn't live in a place that would be great in terms of charging situation unless she monopolized the one car garage and never lets her roommate park in it.
I'm jealous of residents if states that have so many ChargePoint locations. Then, there is also the fact that that they are still free!
Wow, you got to love that!
(But the fact that my electricity is cheaper still has its advantages, too)
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