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Will the Plug In Prius Save You Any Money vs. the Regular Prius?

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by BentSpace, Sep 25, 2011.

  1. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Where I work -- more.
     
  2. BentSpace

    BentSpace Member

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    Less than the gas equivalent price though, I hope?
     
  3. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    ^^ I believe it is $0.50/hour, regardless of the energy actually drawn.
     
  4. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    NOT if you got PV solar

    [​IMG]

    You TOO, can stick it to the oily industry (AND the utility company) - one kWh at a time.

    :rockon:
    Again - not when coupled with PV.
    And funny you should mention refrigeration. Some of the big Vegas Hotels in Vegas now do EXACTLY that . . . they DON'T run their refrigeration during the day time. In stead, they freeze giant room size Ice amounts. Then during the day, when power costs a whole lot more, air passes over last night's ice to do refrigeration. Pretty slick!

    .
     
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  5. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    ^^ Nice picture :) :)
     
  6. adamace1

    adamace1 Senior Member

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    Most people get alot of the energy from coal. So buring coal to make electricity to charge your battery is not better for the environment in my mind. Same goes for all other types of power plants. Unless you install a solar/wind charging station at your home i see no benefit. If spending thousands more to make your prius go 10+ miles on coal/natural gas/ nuke power saves the planet in your mind good for you.
     
  7. cwerdna

    cwerdna Senior Member

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    The national fuel mix is 48.5%. From How clean is the electricity I use? - Power Profiler | Clean Energy | US EPA, I put in a zip code of 28201 which is a zip in Charlotte, NC and came up with 51.1% coal.

    Some regions get a lot of from hydroelectric. For example, 98052 gets 48.4% from hydro.

    Myth vs. Reality - Electric Vehicles - Sierra Club sort of addresses your comment. I will defer to others w/more knowledge than me on this.
     
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  8. radiocycle

    radiocycle Active Member

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    Nationally, two government studies have found PHEVs would result in large reductions even on the national grid (50% coal). The GREET 1.6 model in 2001 by the DOE's Argonne National Lab estimates hybrids reduce greenhouse gases by 22%, and plug-in hybrids by 36%. PHEVs and battery EVs get cleaner as they get older - because the electric grid gets cleaner every decade. Seems like a 'no brainer' to me...
     
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  9. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    these percentages are compared to an average US car. This is a Prius forum :rolleyes:
     
  10. mitch672

    mitch672 Technology Geek

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    I am probably buying a Leaf anyway, that will be %100 electric.

    Also in MA, you can choose a green energy source, either %50 or %100
    wind: http://www.nstar.com/residential/customer_information/nstar_green/product_label.asp

    Perhaps you missed the point about the power grid being cleaned up over time, and if the vehicle fleet is running on electricity, that's gets cleaned up over time as well. Since we are running out of oil, there won't be enough to manufacture 300 million PHEV/EVs (ever), so we better start ASAP, and stop mfr vehicles that are going to soon be obsolete.
     
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  11. theiding

    theiding New Member

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    I understand that the pure EV mode works up to 62mph. Can the PIP still leverage the electric charge if I go above 62mph?

    My commute is 25miles, but I only drive the first 5 miles under 62mph and the remaining 20 miles at 70mph. If I start with a full charge I would use up about one third of that charge on the first 5 miles. Would I use up the remaining 2/3 charge over the remaining 20 miles at 70mph?

    I appreciate any pointers!
     
  12. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Yup. You'll see remarkably efficient engine operation. Similar to what I saw in the PHV...

    [​IMG]
     
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  13. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    That's a pretty outdated study with references from 1999. Heck, the first generation of Prius hasn't even arrived in the US then.

    Here is a recent study from DOE's Argonne National Lab. This study uses power-split hybrid (like Prius). For PHEV-10 and PHEV-20, the same power-split hybrid with bigger battery (like PiP) was used. PHEV-30 and PHEV-40 used simple series hybrid configuration (like Volt but without 3 clutches).

    Using average mix of electricity in the US, the greenhouse gas (GHG) emission from Well-To-Wheel (WTW) graph below sums it up.

    • Gas Baseline (non-hybrid) - About 390 g/mi
    • EV (Leaf) - About 285 g/mi
    • PHEV-30 and PHEV-40 (Volt) - About 325 g/mi
    • PHEV-10 and PHEV-20 (PiP) - About 265 g/mi
    • HV (Regular Prius) - About 265 g/mi

    [​IMG]

    The good news is, EVs (Leaf) are cleaner than conventional gas cars even with majority of power from Coal. The bad news is, EVs are dirtier than a regular hybrid NOW. As the grid get cleaner, we'll see.

    Series plugin hybrids with big battery (Volt) are worse than EVs. PHEV-30 and PHEV-40 are still better than conventional gas cars but not much. We know these types cost the most so they are the least cost effective and requires big buck government incentives.

    PHEV-10 and PHEV-20 (PiP) are much cleaner than the above battery carriers (battery being the heaviest part of the car). I don't mean to sound anti-EV but that's what they called RAV4EV during it's development. We also know PiP cost the least (without incentives) so this type provides the most bang for the plugin buck. A recent study from CMU also confirms this.

    The best yet oldest news is that, a regular hybrid (Prius) still provides the best bang for the buck, NOW. As the price of gas continue to go up, the price of the battery drop and the grid get cleaner, the picture will change.

    In summary, cheapest way to reduce your carbon footprint is with a regular Prius. If you want to support the path to higher electrification, PiP provides the best bang to your pocket, tax payers and the environment. If your priority is the highest level of electrification and want to bet the grid will get cleaner, get a Leaf.
     
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  14. ggood

    ggood Senior Member

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    I think I understand the logic of this study, but it's very surprising that the PIP is a complete wash. Is it safe to assume that someone like me, who gets the majority of their electricity from Texas wind farms, would come out slightly better in this study?
     
  15. ItsNotAboutTheMoney

    ItsNotAboutTheMoney EditProfOptInfoCustomUser Title

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    Perhaps. What matters is where the marginal use comes from since EV would be an addition. If marginal use is coal it's bad, if marginal use is NG it's good.

    In Maine I believe the marginal use is NG. We're half hydro and the rest mostly NG. EVs should come out well even with lower performance in winter.
     
  16. ursle

    ursle Gas miser

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    At over 62mph you are in Hybrid mode, getting 42mpg, I would think the battery would continually charge itself at that speed and be possibly more charged at the finish of the trip then at the start.

    You raise what I consider to be a deal killing question.
    At 62mph and lower the vehicle gets 87+mpg until it runs out of battery power at which time it runs the ICE, and Toyota claims 42mpg in Hybrid mode, so anyone going over 62 is in hybrid mode @ 42mpg and anyone on a trip of over two hours is running in Hybrid mode @ 42mpg which is a far cry from the 53+mpg I now get in Hybrid mode (06), true the figures are the early, not finished testing figures but Toyota released them.
     
  17. gwmort

    gwmort Active Member

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    Several misconceptions:

    1. The car will not charge itself from the ICE while cruising. To do so would add charge discharge cycles and unnecessarily shorten battery life. You can capture unlimited regen should you have the opportunity, but even in hybrid mode expect the car to utilize that captured energy rather than accumulating more EV range.

    2. I'm not sure where the 42 mpg is coming from, I'd have sworn the released CS mode is 49 mpg.

    3. Over 62 mph you are not in straight HV mode, you'll be in a blended mode where most of the power is still coming from discharging the battery and supplemented by the ICE, this is where you'll get the 87 mpg, if you can keep the ICE off during the CD phase you'll see better mileage, Toyota released the blended number (IMO because that is what the sticker will show).
     
  18. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    eGRID (2007 data) shows NRG Energy Inc that supplies Houston consists of 2.8% renewal energy. 49.5% of the electricity is from Natural Gas and 34.4% from Coal. This means fossil fuel make up 83.9%. Not sure if the wind farms dramatically increased in the past 4 years.

    If you look at California, this is how it looks. Keep in mind that the cleaner electricity in CA is also more expensive. Plugins do make sense in CA.

    [​IMG]
     

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  19. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    In hybrid mode, it is rated at 49 MPG (1 less than 50 MPG).

    Just because the gas engine is spinning above 62 mph does not mean it is in HV mode. HV mode starts if you press the EV button (disabling EV mode) or the battery run out of the PHV portion.

    If the battery still has charge for PHV portion, it'll blend electric with gas. That'll give the MPG boost. This is the electricity + gas range. See the below sample EPA label. That example car has 2x the battery capacity of PiP but about half of the Volt yet gets 50 miles blended range.

    [​IMG]
     
  20. ursle

    ursle Gas miser

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    Ah ha, I reread the press release I was remembering,
    2012 Toyota Prius Plug-In: 15 mile EV range, 87 MPGe, $32,000 | PriusChat
    and it claims 49mpg in hybrid mode, last I looked it was 42mpg in hybrid, 15 mile range on pure electric and 87mpg, so my confusion is, 87mpg in what mode?
    Hybrid is electric and ice, they state hybrid get's 49mpg, what mode is getting 87mpg?