2010 Prius Plug-In - 60 MPH EV, 13 Mile Range, 1.5 Hour Recharge

How can you even compare the Prius plug-in to the Volt? Unless the rumors are completely untrue - the Volt will likely be $10K more expensive than the Prius and as such - few - if any will actually buy Chevy Volts unless there's a massive tax break.

 

That is a very simplistic statement that means very little until we know exactly how the car works.

From what has been out there, the ICE is not going to attempt to bulk RAISE the charge level in the batteries, that would be a bad move. The batteries should be used as a buffer and 'breath' allowing the ICE to run at a constant speed. We really do not know exactly what the Volt will do until its out. If the Volt runs the ICE at wildly differing speeds all the time to match the power needs and stores nothing in the battery then GM has made some bad decisions in the design.

Second.... if the Volt's batteries were cold (providing far less power then warm batteries) then running on ICE power wether or not we charge the batteries is ok. Once the batteries are warm we switch back to them. Very little is lost by doing this with much gained because we just heated the pack with waste ICE heat and still got motion for the car out of that gas.

Now we have an electric car that works in cold temps without having to run a heater on the batteries. Smart.

 

It is. My numbers (pulled from Wikipeida on the 3 cars) are the electrical efficiency of the electric modes not their ranges.

 

There is going to be a $7500 tax break for the Volt. I personally consider that massive. We do not know what either car will cost.

My guess
Volt =$40,000 - $7500 = $32500
Prius PHEV equipped like package 3 = $32000 - $3000 credit = $29000

They are comparable because they are both plug in hybrids (sorry GM!) and while not identical in price they are going to be going for a similar market segment.

 

So long as we are guessing:
Volt 50k - 7.5k = 42.5k
PHV 35k - 3k = 32k

 

Sounds logical. GM will probably market the Volt to the same financial demographic as the Corvette. Toyota has already said the PHV isn't going to be inexpensive, yet at the same time they have also said "it will be affordable." I think your estimates make good sense.

 

It is a bad feature because they are trying to sell the Volt as an electric car. I do agree with you that it makes sense to use gas instead of battery to warm itself up. The Volt switches between gas and electric therefore it is a hybrid. The frequency, speed and scenario may be different than a Prius PHV but they both are hybrids that you can plug in.

A full EV with bigger battery pack should meet the rated power even in the cold because there are more cells. This issue probably arises because the Volt has a "small" pack. If anything this illustrate the Volt's battery chemistry shortcoming.

 

Considering that the Volt is the biggest of the 3 its rating is pretty good. Its also the only one lugging around an ICE and can fill up at any normal gas station in a pinch. Four seats are enough.[/quote]

Actually, Leaf will be the bigger car. It will seat five and the interior volume of it's cousin (Versa) has more room than the Volt's cousin (Cruze).

112.5 cu.ft. Versa Hatch vs. 110 cu.ft. Cruze. The Cruze is a sedan with trunk but the Volt is a hatch back with the battery pack taking up the rear mid-seat.

Prius PHV will be the biggest of all with 115.3 cu.ft and probably the most affordable.

 

The Volt battery pack will deplete faster than you can charge out of the household socket. 110V / 40A plug can charge at about 4kW while maintaining highway speed would require 10-15kW.

Basically, you'll be spending the precious / expensive battery energy pushing through the air at 3 times the rate you can charge. It doesn't sound right but that's the bottom line.

For that reason (from looking at the bigger picture), my belief is... it is better to use gas on the highway and battery in the city.

 

wow. is this "weight penalty" discussion really necessary?

if you have 2 cars and are ignoring the "method of motivation" and the only thing you knew was one had to be filled up 3 times a month, cost nearly $100, the other was filled once a month, but plugged in daily. and it cost a total of $30.

would you really give a sh** how much the battery weighed??

wou

 

ok, i admit i have not followed the Volt development all that closely. but last i remember, i was under the impression that the gas engine could not provide enough power to drive the car, only charging the battery. have they changed that?

 

The ICE has enough power to maintain the target SOC range (25-30%) in the charge sustain (HV) mode. For the Prius, the target SOC is 60%.

Volt's ICE is rated peak at 71hp and the Iconic Prius is at 76hp. Volt's ICE should have plenty enough power and burst acceleration will be tapped into the battery. Volt's HV mode should work the same way as Prius. The only difference is ... instead of having a PSD (for mechanical power transfer), all the power will come from the generator.

 

from the torono star paper
Toyota launches Prius
Plug-in lease program

Toyota takes aim at upcoming electrified vehicles from General Motors and Nissan's Leaf, by officially launching its Prius Plug-in Hybrid lease program.
Between now and late spring, Toyota will be building 600 examples of the plug-in Prius for testing by government, commercial and university fleets in Japan, the U.S. and Europe.
As for the plug-in's availability here, Toyota Canada says our market is on the list of countries the automaker is "considering."
The first 100 Prius Plug-ins will go to Strasbourg, France, which has 300 electric vehicle recharging stations.
As Toyota's first plug-in model, the Prius Plug-In adds an external charging function and more batteries to the standard Prius.
The Japanese automaker says that, on a full charge and full tank of gas, it can go 23.4 km using only the electric motor, or 1,400 km total, with a combined EV and hybrid fuel economy of 1.76 L/100km (134 m.p.g.).
Nissan's Leaf electric car, due for sale in 2010, has a range of 160 km on a single charge.
The forthcoming Chevrolet Volt plug-in hybrid is designed to be driven for 64 km on a single battery charge, then a gas engine kicks in to create electricity to power the electric motor when the battery has been drained.
Toyota's plans call for the plug-in to be more than a niche vehicle. Its goal is to sell "several tens of thousands" of plug-in hybrid cars to consumers in an "affordable" price range.

Has anyone else seen the numbers of 1.76l/100km

 

I think automakers need to think outside of the box on this one and use a simple technology that we have been using for decades in our houses. Instead of waiting for the engine to heat up to provide heat the radiator fluid, after the thermostat opens up, perhaps they should use gasoline to heat the air in the exact same way that we use methane to hear out houses. Install a small, traditional furnace (like our houses) and use gasoline to fuel it to heat the interior. Instant heat.

 

are there not other things in consideration here?
1. loses from ice>electric motor>wheels?
2. Volt being a lot heavier than Gen2?

 

About as meaningful as GM's 230mpg for the Volt. That is, not at all. Once you start getting energy from a different source, just counting the overall distance travelled with a fully-charged battery, and dividing by the amount of petrol/gasoline used, gives false numbers on whatever drive cycle you use.

What we want to know is: how far can you drive without burning any fuel (on a specified drive cycle), or alternatively how much does it cost when doing so, then what is the fuel consumption of the charge-sustaining mode (i.e. regular hybrid driving). In calculating an average, the length of the trip determines what number you get because the first part is free when considering liquid fuel consumption. If different manufacturers use different trip lengths in their calculations, the results aren't comparable. We need the two numbers separately so we can weigh the relative costs against our own trips, though of course we can't easily factor in our own driving relative to the EPA estimates.

 

Yea, we should. If the generator and traction motor are 95% efficient, total efficiency will be 90%. That brings down the ICE to 64 hp. The Volt should be 300-400 lbs heavier too due to 16kWh battery pack.

Having said that, the Volt's battery should be capable of putting out 160hp. At that rate, the pack can be discharged its usable energy (85%-25% SOC) in just 4 minutes.

As the pack get to 25% SOC, it still should be able to put out 140 hp to assist the 64 hp ICE.

I hope GM engineers test it on I-70 Eisenhower Tunnel 11,000 ft climb.

 

thats the whole thing, if ICE is not charging batteries over 25%, which is minimum, then will it be adding anything to the acceleration? How can it? and for how long?

 

It is not a real world number, but it is a paper math number defined by JP government using "Utility Factor".
The math is shown at page-7 of following presentation, which link was introduced on my post.
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/conference09/pdf/phv_overview_en.pdf

The 2010 Prius Plug-in is 23.4 km EV range -> 0.462 UF
The 2010 Prius Plug-in HV mode FE is 30.6 km/L -> 53.8% (1 - 0.462) HV driving.
The combined FE of the paper math is 30.6 km/L / 53.8% = 57 km/L (1.75L/100km or 134 mpg_US).

Note: the FE numbers are based on the JP JC08 test cycle.

Ken@Japan

 

Referring to the UF chart...
The UF of Volt 40 miles (64 km) is approx 0.72, so the FE on the math will be 38 mpg / 0.28 = 136 mpg.
Using 50 mpg Prius EPA number, the FE is 50 mpg / 0.538 = 93 mpg.

The UF method does not reflect real world number, but it is used for comparison purpose among PHV vehicles.

Ken@Japan