The real price of gas in Germany (and EU for that matter)

Grumpy,

"Instead of looking at fuel economy as a bad thing and being forced from your existing way of life and existing vehicle, why not look at fuel economy as being extra patriotic as it will enable you to reduce dependance on foreign oil and the often dodgy governments/countries that provide this oil. You can still continue with a comfortable way of life, just using a more fuel efficient vehicle. You don't have to go the full hog and swap a SUV for a Prius. Maybe just swap it for a SUV with better mileage."

May I humbly suggest that you read the thread entitled "Is global warming unstoppable" and other threads to see how this exact argument has been suggested to the "deniers". You can also see how they react to it, mostly with bile and vitriol. It seems the only thing they care about is their own tiny portion of the universe, their wallet!

 

Smart People those Germans. We need to do more of this (tax gas and diesel!) in the USA. And use the money for roadway and energy independance projects. Although, first we need to pay down the deficit, as much of is due to a perverted attempt at energy security in the past 8 years anyway....

 

Wisconsin....When we see an anti-cooperative, self serving driving maneuver that blows the smooth flow of traffic for hundreds of yards on an interstate down here, its many times a cheese-head young driver....

 

There are quite a few coming in the US and some already here. Jeep liberty CRD and grand cherokee crd for starters. Also the chevy half ton silverado and ford F150 diesel.

 

Exactly! I wish there were mandatory education for ANYONE who buys an a vehicle larger than a medium sized SUV about our dependence on foreign oil, pollution, greenhouse gas emissions, most of where the world's oil reserves lie, oil choke points, etc.

It's insane that still for model year 2009, 49% of light vehicles sold in the US were "light trucks" w/SUVs are growing % of that.

People should be buying vehicles more commensurate w/their actual needs (e.g. driving solo to work or having a 1 or 2 child family doesn't mean you need a 5000+ lb. monstrosity like a Tahoe, Yukon, Suburban or Navigator), not just because they can "afford" it or "I'll drive whatever the hell I want".

 

If "your side" would make any attempt to deal with the underlined, the "other side" might agree. We already pay far more than every one of those other countries with universal health care and "your side" is only going to make it more expensive. That's a solution? It's pandering, essentially bribing us with our own money.

And your reference to "sides" is very unfortunate IMO, the kind of increased polarization that has not helped this country and only makes things worse. In the end, these are issues for all of us.

 

Have you thought that these people actually are buying vehicles commensurate to their actual needs? 90% of Truck and SUV owners use them for far more than just daily drivers. Many use them to haul not only themselves and their kids but sports equipment. Others kids and equipment. Things like that.

Not to mention most SUV owners use them for things like outdoor activities, towing recreational vehicles. Getting places small cars cant.

Things like that.

For most smart people its more economical sensible not to mention more "green" to have one vehicle and payment that can do all of the above and get them to work and back. Most people dont want an extra set of payments.

For the greenies in this post Would it be more "green"
to own one vehicle that can do all necessary things for the family?

A person who is truly green would see it my way. Think of the carbon emissions from a second unnecessary car. Which is exactly what a smaller vehicle would be to a family like that

 

There's a few more than that:
Jetta / Golf / A3 TDI
Q7 TDI
BMW 335d
BMW X5d
Mercedes E320 / GL320 / R320 / ML320 Bluetec

But the VWs are the only real affordable ones in the bunch. BMW has hinted of a 4-cylinder diesel for North America.

 

The logic breaks down right where you assumed that people should have the right to own and regularly operate sporting toys like boats, jet-skis, snow mobiles or whatever and thus require a large vehicle to tow them. These items are not a requirement for most of the people using them unless you use the following logic:

• I must own a quad so I can go hunting
• I must own a boat so I can take people wake boarding
• I must own a snow mobile so I can traverse the back country
• I must ride dirt bikes because it awesome and my right

Not saying there are not acceptable applications for these activities but that is the usual argument I get and then I take a hard look at these people and they are not ranchers, they are not depredation biologists, they are not professional tournament fishermen etc. These are simply toys to them. So their "need" should be regulated such that they truly pay for the amount of degradation the activity costs or in cases where mitigation should not or cannot take place then the activity should be banned or by permit only. Here is where most would cry "ohh but you are stealing my rights as an American". My response is tough. This is just but one of many problems we face with a large and growing population in which out toys become ever more destructive as technology increases.

 

The type of thing I highlighted in bold is available here as well. But the difference is that most americans visit more than one area regularly and need the ability every weekend to tow these things or haul them. Renting is very impractical then.

As to your views on "the average" american and the credit cards.

I have to tell you those are not the average american. The average middle class democrat maybe. But 60% of america is not like that.

Myself for example. I own 2 pickup trucks, 2 Atv's several trailers, a boat,a large camper, a car for my wife, and a modest home. Also along with a couple family members we own a lake cabin on one acre. And also 40 acres of recreational land in northern MN.

With the exception of one truck and my home loan everything is 100% paid for and I'm only 35.

The problem with alot of Americans liberals for the most part is they think everything is owed to them by the government or the rich. Thats not the case. Here in america if you want something you get off your butt and work for it. But most americans under 30 today dont see it that way because of the way they were raised. When I say most im generalizing meaning those that live on the east and west coast. Most in the midwest know how to work for their belongings. You get on the coast. California in particular. Everything is handed to them by the government. Look at Cali's economic status. Not so great is it?

I had 3 jobs up until I was 30 years old. To this day I still kind of have 3. One being my full time fire/EMS job. I also work part time for another local area ambulance service, and am also involved in the volunteer fire/ems squad in my town.

 

DaveFdems writes,

"For most smart people its more economical sensible not to mention more "green" to have one vehicle and payment that can do all of the above and get them to work and back. Most people dont want an extra set of payments.

For the greenies in this post Would it be more "green"
to own one vehicle that can do all necessary things for the family?

A person who is truly green would see it my way. Think of the carbon emissions from a second unnecessary car. Which is exactly what a smaller vehicle would be to a family like that"


I think you got this one wrong. What would be more "green" would be to drive the ideal sized vehicle 100% of the time for the ideal sized load. While this is rarely feasible, driving a 1/2 ton pick up to the grocery store for 25 lbs of groceries isn't the most efficient use of either that truck nor the fuel to drive it.

As for the argument that having one vehicle to do it all makes sense. I agree, but only to a point. If for example you use a Pick up once a month to cart compost, or lumber or what ever, rent or borrow one! Every small town in N. America has a rental agency, and every Home Depot/Lowes etc has trucks for rent by the hour. The idea that I have to drive my 1/2 ton 14,000 miles a year so that I CAN drive it 1000 with a load is crazy!

As for the "carbon emissions" from the second unneeded car, how are you going to drive two cars at once?

You make all kinds of "justification" but it all come down to what it is "you" want. Like I said very early on in this thread, in this country you are entitled to do so, but we, through or elected government are entitle to levy taxes on those activity to cover their costs to society.

You may not like it, and indeed I understand that, but the reality is that burning fossil fuel comes at a considerable cost that is not reflected in the pump price.

 

This "us and them" attitude is getting increasingly worse. Why is it always someone else's fault? If you're so proud of 'earning' the right to use all your toys, how about paying the environmental costs instead of whining about the fuel taxes?

 

Dave,

I must take issue, and I think you would be advised to study history a bit more before you get too invested in such statements as this: : "Look at Cali's economic status. Not so great is it?"

The reality in California is very complicated. With little room for argument the greatest wealth creation in the 20th century was in California's Silicon Valley, and it continues today with companies such as google, apple, Hp, etc.

The governance issue is California, and it's lack of ability to pay it's bill rest squarely in the prehistoric (1970's) tea bag/don't tax me movement that brought about Prop 13, the net effect of which has been, over time, to cripple state and local government's ability to fund virtually ANY services, much less just essential services.

This movement has been exacerbated by the current legislature rules that make passing ANY tax increase nearly impossible. These folks like to tout "waste in government" and how eliminating it will pay for everything. Now California has been cutting bone, and people are finally beginning to get it. These folks have to wake up and realize that things cost money, and the way you pay for them is with taxes!

 

I have the same response for you. Tough if you dont like it. We have the rights to these things. We pay for the necessary permits, trail fees maintainence costs and the like.

Dont get me started on this. I can go round and round with you all day. This is not the place for it.

 

Icarus your thought process is whats wrong here. The average pickup owner uses it "more than once a month to cart compost" 9 out of 10 pickup owners I know use them for their intended purpose weekly if not daily.

My advice to anyone with your views is get out of the major metro area for more than a few hours at a time. You might learn something

 

Sorry you feel that way Icarus. But the true problem is government themselves. California doesnt need half of the wasteful social programs they have implemented.

What happened to people working to earn things or flat out getting off their you know wheres.

I suspect most people with your views are under 30 and dont have a clue about the world before everything was handed to them.

I cant remember who said it but he/she was spot on "If you are under 30 and arent a liberal you dont have a heart. If you are over 30 and are still a liberal you dont have a brain"

 

Use your brain for a minute. This goes much farther than fuel taxes. I pay them I dont bitch about them. I paid fuel costs last year when they were insane. Didnt bitch about them much then either.

This is about liberals and their views.

The difference between a conservative and a liberal is this

If a conservative doesnt like something someone else does he/she tolerates it.

If a lib doesnt like something someone else does. He/she trys to force government to ban people from doing it

 

Dave

"My advice to anyone with your views is get out of the major metro area for more than a few hours at a time. You might learn something"

I have lived outside a metro area my entire life, INCLUDING in rural WI for a while. The fact is, how often do you see full sized pickup doing nothing but carrying the driver and a bag of groceries? How often do you see (in metro areas especially) pickups in the general purpose (non car pool) lane with just the driver and brief case?

I was a general contractor for the bulk of my career, and I drove a 3/4 ton 4x4 until I realized that if I needed more than a couple of 2X4s I could get it delivered for free, so I just run a mini pickup now. (Too bad they don't make them small anymore!)

It is, as we say, a mindset, and it is somewhat selfish attitude. We are not talking about banning an activity here (at least not on this thread) what we are talking about is paying their share of the real costs.

As for the California issue, social programs like k-12 schools, health departments, building depts, roads and hwy dept. I guess we don't need these things. I could add a few hundred more, not including fire dept/ems/police depts, but I gotta run!