NHTSA Tracking Braking Loss on Prius Hybrids

As I have said, Gen III can stop WITHOUT decellerating. It just goes from MOVING to STOPPED. It'll spill your coffee!!!:rockon:

 

Those of us who WANT to own the Prius and WANT the technology to succeed are willing to put up with aspects of the car that are less than ideal. The problem will be getting the masses to accept and buy the Prius, or any other hybrid for that matter. The masses will not be won over to high mileage cars if they have to learn to adapt to this "little braking anomaly" or anything like it. EVs are no different in that they will need sufficient range and they will not succeed if heating in the northern climes cuts the range in half.

The bar has been set by what people drive today and most (not all) people will simply not accept anything that is much below the bar, unless forced by something like $10 a gallon gas. I don't believe the vast majority of us on PC are representative of the masses.

 

Overlooking something blatantly obvious yourself, eh?

Press really hard on the accelerator pedal. The result is very, very different from a traditional automatic. That sound & feel requires some adapting. In fact, it had been described as "disconcerting" on many occasion in the past. Yet, it's no big deal now... not even mentioned anymore.

What's next? The revving of the engine when SOC is low and demand is high?

Of course, we're talking the same masses who embraced SUVs despite their safety compromises. And this is no longer an anomaly if so much attention continues to be put on it. People will be well aware of it.
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John, are you referring to the very smooth acceleration in the Prius vs the clunky last century shifting of a traditional automatic? If so, that is a change people will embrace as it is a positive change that results in a smoother ride. That makes it a very different animal than less than predictable brakes.

 

To me it's blatantly obvious the two can't be compared for a very, very critical reason.

Braking is probably a LOT more critical in emergency situations than is acceleration. Or even in day to day minor operations. As such it should have a more predictable feel and user determined confidence and universal familiarity associated to it.

Also, if your car's accelerator seems sluggish or slow compared to most cars it may get you some yelling at on the highway or starting off from intersections, but it's not going to cause any real safety issue. If your brake pedal goes to mush when you're attempting to stop and you compound that by panic manuevers by a driver, then you're looking at a problem. Acceleration travel distance is a lot more forgiving than braking stopping distances.

 

That's what we mean by blowing the situation way out of proportion. There's no mush.

All you get is a split-second pulse so brief it's already over by the time the person decides whether or not to react to it. If they are aware of the behavior and are notified, like what VSC does, they won't react. They will be aware that nothing failed.

Haven't you noticed that the complaint are under the impression that something failed? Heck, even the original article implies that. Those drivers thought something was broken, not knowing simply continuing to hold pressure on the brake is all they needed to do.
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Here is another note. I had the opportunity to drive the Gen II and
Gen III over the same obstacles at the same speeds. The Gen III is way smoother and has much less of a tendency to have the mometary transitions.

 

What I find intriguing about topics like this is how they distort, especially the threads about the same thing on other forums. Focus varies.

You can still find new posts (from unknown people) with references to the car accelerating when hitting a bump. Even if you remove your foot entirely from the brake pedal, that won't happen. Yet, they claim it did.

The sensation is real. The possibility of over-reaction is too. That hasn't emerged as a safety problem though. Better driver information is all that appears to be needed. Feedback like VSC provides should do the trick. After all, when VSC engages to compensate it hasn't been a problem.
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You continue to push the thought there is a braking problem implying that the vehicle doesn't stop as soon as it should stop. This is entirely wrong from my own experience and apparently from that of the others herein. Precision is extremely important here.

Yes, it's possible that the sensations during braking may feel different in certain isolated instances for certain drivers.

In actual fact from my personal experience and apparently from that of others herein the vehicle actually stops shorter than expected. It may even stop shorter than any other vehicle of its class, TBD. So in fact there is no braking problem. There is a difference in braking feel. Now if this difference in feel causes some drivers to wig-out or to panic then that's an adaptation issue.

Precision in stating the issue is very very important here. It takes all the emotion out of it leaving it in simple boring terms.

The huge huge huge majority of drivers as reported herein have adapted smoothly and see no problem.

Now if you want to continue to report and to refer to this issue as a 'braking problem' then you're simply inciting unwarranted fears for the sake of stirring the pot and generating heightened emotions. LIke Becker the OP who wigged-out, called in the Feds, called a Detroit website to press his claim and then came here to PC to draw additional attention to himself he's simply trying to generate fears by his claims and threats.

 

It looks like the GM Volt forum is jumping of the band wagon.

Third Generation Toyota Prius Regenerative Brakes Flawed?

I'm kinda #&^%$ off that this is getting blown out of proportion in that the media and other websites are referring to this a brake failure when no failure exists.

I guess we won't be happy until the hybrid of choice is the cadillac escalade hybrid. I hear OPEC loves them!

 

This forum debate sorta reminds me of the Old Salem Witch Hunt.

If your not Christian! You must be a Witch! Let's burn you at the Stake.

If you don't agree with us your not a Christian! You must be a Witch! Let's burn you at the Stake!

The action wasn't Christian like! You must be a Witch! Let's burn you at the Stake!

 

Villager: We have found a witch, may we burn her?

Crowd: BURN!! BUUUURN HER!

Bedevere: But how do you *know* she is a witch?

Villager: She looks like one!

Other Villagers: Yeah! She looks like one!!!

Bedevere: Bring her forward.

Witch: I'm not a witch, I'm not a witch!

Bedevere: Er,...but you are dressed as one.

Witch: THEY dressed me up like this.

Villagers: No! nooo! We didn't! We didn't!

Witch: And this isn't my nose, it's a false one!

Bedevere: Well?

One Villager: Well, we did do the nose.

Bedevere: The nose?

Villager: And the Hat. But she's a witch!

Villagers: Yeah! Burn her! Burn! Burn her!

Bedevere: Did you dress her up like this?

Villagers: NO! No, no, no, no, no, no...

One Villager: yes.

Villagers: yes. yes. yes. A bit. yes. a bit. a bit.

Another Villager: She has got a wart...

Bedevere: What makes you think she is a witch?

Villager: Well, She turned me into a newt!!

Bedevere: a newt?

Villager: I got better...

Villagers: BURN HER anyway! BURN! BURN! BURN HER!


http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_scripts/witch.php

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Come on, that's not fair. First of all "Gear Heads" aren't necessarily any more or less educated than "Prius Chatters". Plus I would say that in the past any criticism leveled by anyone about The Prius feeling like an appliance to drive wasn't about wanting the brakes to feel like they are losing affectiveness. That's NOT the type of driving feedback people want, or even critics were talking about. Regardless of how this plays out, and I do think NHTSA needs to investigate and so does Toyota, but regardless of how it plays out, I highly, highly doubt it will end up being a case of it being a "feature" of the brakes giving feedback to feel the connection to the road. That's not the type of feedback from the road anyone ever wants, and it's not the type of feature any sane automaker would purposely include with their automobile.

Yes the NHTSA headline is attention getting. But what did you expect them to put? That's the sensation that is being reported. Did you expect the headline to be: NHTSA Tracking New Braking Road Feel Feedback Feature on Prius Hybrids?

Sorry, I don't mean to sound snarky or advesarial, and as I have responded in previous posts, I'm perfectly willing to accept if we track long enough and/or solid test results are obtained, that this is a "normal" acceptable operation. But sometimes the levels of denial some Prius Owners seem capable of achieving are dizzying.

As others have posted, this could be a problem. Let's go ahead and investigate and track. I'd rather error on the side of we over investigated something that wasn't a problem, than error on the side of we redefined a problem so people could feel good about it.

 

The Electric Me,

I was just trying to lighten my sour mood and hoping to get a laugh.

John1701a,

Thanks for that. I nearly rolled out my chair!

 

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrzMhU_4m-g]YouTube - She's a witch![/ame]

 

A suggested method for testing brakes comes at the end.

 

I hope my last posts have not offended anyone. This was my attemp to try to make a point with humor. I've checked varius websites and the news is spreading in big bold letters, Prius Brake Failures, Toyota Gen III Prius Owners Complain of Faulty Brakes, ETC,ETC, ETC.

Is there one single person out there that has failed brakes? NO

Is there one single person out there who has had an accident because thier brakes failed? Not incluing the one rumored report to which we have no facts, NO

There is a quite the diffirence in our braking anomaly then in Brake failure. It's one thing to say that we feel the brakes are not right, it's another to say they are unsafe with out the facts.

The media and the mass' feed off words. When they see, DANGROUS, UNSAFE, FAILURE, ETC, the rest is forgotten. Then the witch hunt begins. All the other great attributes are forgotten and we and we are ready to burn the witch at the stake.

What I see is that we are well underway to tarnishing the reputation of great technology bsaed on what currently appears to be at best, a gilch.

 

GeoDesign, I'm not offended. Speaking only for myself. The only thing I would say is that "Witch Hunt" is sort of a P.O.V. two way street.

I think those honestly experiencing the "sensation" or "problem" that are posting and looking for answers can often be made to feel like they are the witches being hunted. There definently can be a "It's not a problem" "You're a (Troll!) (Witch!)" attitude that can be reflected back.

Sometimes the "Defend The Prius!" "Defend The Technology!" can feel like the "judges" attacking the "Witches" just trying to communicate a perceived problem.

So be careful when you cry Witch Hunt...because it's a two way street. What you end up with is EVERYONE feeling persecuted.

 

Totally agreed. I too believe this issue is much more appropriately placed in the 'glitch' or possibly 'miscalibration' category, as opposed to the 'failure' category. It is definitely an unexpected response, that may vary from car to car, and that has potential to be a bigger issue. But 'potential' is a world apart from 'failure'. The truly unfortunate thing is that we cannot seem discuss a legitimate issue that could perhaps be easily corrected because of the desire by sensationalist "news" people to find a story. Lovers of the car, myself included, rightly desire not to give those lowlifes any 'ammo' - when you're on top, people are always looking for a reason to bring you down. But on the other hand, I also love the car enough to want to see its imperfections improved and it pisses me off to no end that having civil discussions about about it seems to be a near impossibility because of the polarizing effect of the media.

 

But Rachaelseven, I'm asking this as a question. When you are talking about the polarizing effect of the media, don't you think that get's blown out of proportion within this forum?

Because this IS Prius chat, we (The entire Prius Chat Community) pay extra close attention. We get the links to the articles and the NHTSA reports. But outside of this forum, in the real world, the regular media, I don't think it's as nearly as polarizing or damaging as it is made to seem in here.

Unfortunately, on some levels, The Prius Chat enviroment lends itself to polarization because you have people so vested in the Prius. I know outside of posting here, for me, in the work world/real world, people don't really understand Prius Chat, or why I follow it, and most of the time they have barely heard any news about Toyota or Prius. Here, people care....outside, for most people cars are cars and they don't care what's being said about Prius.

I get frustrated because I see discussions deteriate into one side yelling PROBLEM! and the other side yelling NOT A PROBLEM! And it all just stalling out (no pun intended) into a polarized back and forth. But I don't really blame the media.

Until we reach the point where Prius sales are falling. And you have tangible reports of people not buying Prius because of unfounded fears they have picked up in the media, then I don't think we have a problem.

Conversely, if there really are problems, that really do need to be adressed then unfortunately for Toyota and Prius owners they are just going to have to face it.

Last night, someone posted a thread with a link to a Canadian Publication that had an absolutely glowing review of the 2010 Prius. Most people get there information when considering an automobile from car magazines, car review sites, and overwhelmingly the most of those reviews for the 2010 are excellent.

As far as information and opinion go, I consider Prius Chat to be on the cutting edge of information....your getting most of the feedback from owners almost immediately as they notice or experience something. This lends itself to almost a fictional polarization. It's paranoia I think on both sides. "They're out to get The Prius" vs. "Toyota City, We Have a Problem, Come in Toyota City".