Fallacy; The Troll's True Vulnerability

Hello!!



Down here!!

 

>> throw axe

 

Are you a dwarf? Really?

 

Not quite, but he does have a good girth to height ratio.

Tom

 

Ahhhh ... the gauntlent has been thrown down ... now ... let's see what I can claim to drive you over the edge!



I look at trols as lonely/angry people who never/don't get enough attention ... folks that never got enough pats on the head from their peirs/parents/guardians. Nope, I've never been able to win one over. But you never know. I do like Tony's suggeston ... ask 'em to list some authority.

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A momentary tangent: couple of years ago I got over the top on a spammer here.

My first exposure to spam was ruder than most....an old IP provider was sold to what became a spam site and they sent their porn solicitations to my new IP provider with very insulting subject lines. This was around 2000 and I generally don't do more than PG-13 sites.

I just ridicule the compulsion of spammers - I picture a comic that some tractor beam in their mind "makes" them do it with urges that exceed drugs or sex. In my dreams, they would get ebombed until they took an honest job.

Back to the original topic

 

Delta Flyer, you need to see the Spamusement website (it's cartoons made from literally interpreting spam email subject lines).

 

I suspect their typical reply would be "Everybody knows that <whatever their claim is>. You don't need an authority to tell you that rain falls down, not up."

There are people who post out of genuine ignorance and want to learn. But trolls only want to insult.

 

The funniest spam I actually got:

Want to see Britney Spears naked?
​

Like we don't already for free?

 

Sometimes a troll performs a useful service by becoming the object of a 'teachable moment.' For example, the recent Lexus fatal accident that remains in the 2010 Prius forum has a few who persist in trying to claim there was a Toyota computer failure and must be in the 2010 Prius too.

So I'm using their repeated "Toyota computer failure" to discuss the scientific method ... how we use experiments, facts and data to test a hypothesis. I'm not challenging them directly but using this to 'safe' the thread and eventually suggest those claiming "Toyota computer failure" are being intellectually lazy by not 'going to the lab' and replicating the failure.

The more amusing trolls are those who claim to have a Prius and spout "Toyota computer failure" or similar nonsense. Instead of getting another car and eliminating the source of their fears, they keep the car ... for years. In those cases, we are dealing with a human form of the White Queen from Through the Looking Glass who once said, 'that in her youth she could believe "six impossible things before breakfast" and counsels Alice to practice the same skills' (Wikipedia.)

Bob Wilson

 

The worst thing that can happen to a forum is once it gets activity, the founder completely changes directions for activity at any cost....the betrayed charter members that built it up become "trolls".

The two times I've witnessed this (a pet forum and GreenHybrid), activity eventually is worse than before - reward for their bait-and-switch.

 

It is easy to misunderstand a charter. One of the earliest feedbacks I got at GreenHybrid was when a diesel advocate came and wanted to discuss their mileage. I was curious and posted a supporting comment about tracking diesel mileage. Jason pointed out it is called "Green Hybrid" not "high mileage." The name and charter were clear as was the absence of any non-hybrid mileage tracking. But this was a good thing.

Enforcement of the charter spurred formation of CleanMPG and derivatives. This has provided happy places for folks who have different charters, goals and objectives. One of the better offshoots is Ecomodder, a place where experimentation takes precedence.

Forums come and go and I've been a little concerned that many of the moderators at PriusChat now hang at the Prius Facebook place. I'd noticed a drop-off of their postings here and the fall-off makes sense. They are dealing with more 'newbies' at Facebook so all is good. The point is we grow and change and move on and so too should forums.

After the new owners of GreenHybrid destroyed the original database, we now have MyHybridCar, a place whose title and charter should be clear and unambigious. It is where I keep my hybrid mileage.

Bob Wilson

 

There was no misunderstanding and GreenHybrid grew it's first two or so years (why were they welcome for so long? )....plenty of members back then advocating higher fuel economy and hypermiling. Green implies sustainable which also implies less resources - less fuel.

The point: GreenHybrid the first 2-3 years was tolerant and friendly to hypermilers and they thrived. Once their staff decided to unwelcome them, activity declined to the point it may not even be 20% of what it was back then. You don't turn on the members that built you.

I'd be fine if their URL was www.gearheadhybrid.com as it's far more accurate of a place that has embraced speeders, guzzlers, even spammers, but immediately runs off hypermilers, yet insists they are green. The general neglect is also a betrayal.

I don't drive a Prius- should PC hound me out? If it was run like GreenHybrid they would, even though it's probable I will eventually get a Prius.

Again, GreenHybrid was happy to use hypermilers and other green enthausiasts a couple of years then run them off - anyone find such bait-and-switch a good way to run a forum?

 

Near as I can tell, the enforcers of the original GreenHybrid charter have moved-on. For example, I just checked and the GreenHybrid mileage database now includes two F150 pickup trucks, 15.77 and 14.00 MPG ... sounds like the current GreenHybrid is an excellent recruiting opportunity and wide open. <grins>

Personally, I'm with hybrids and engineering and compared to GreenHybrid, there are better sites for my delights. <grins>

Bob Wilson

 

Agreed - it's called neglect...it's easy to find spam there daily.

Where is this charter? Links?

Anyway, CleanMPG has been around half as long, yet has more activity and total posts.

 

The GreenHybrid charter are these two links:

• Hybrid Mileage Database - GreenHybrid - this one has only hybrid electric vehicles and differentiates between the Honda Civic and Prius by transmissions and models. This database no longer supports updates.
• GreenHybrid - Hybrid Cars - Garage Fuel Economy - pools all hybrid Civics, Insights, Prius and includes non-hybrids. This is the active database. Still, the EPA web site does differentiate models by year and type of transmission.

Since it is impossible to do engineering studies from the new database, it no longer has any utility. I get better data from Fuel Economy although not as detailed as I would prefer.

The owners of GreenHybrid.com have a business model they wish to pursue. Sad to say, it does not parallel my interests in engineering and hybrid technology.

Bob Wilson

 

That's a data warehouse - not a charter that decribes beliefs, purpose of site, etc.

What can't be changed or rationalized away is it's first 2-3 years GreenHybrid people like myself, msantos were welcomed.....Wayne Gerdes was the most active member - most sought. The founder's conscious had no problems as he sold GH to completely redefine the site so that many of it's founding members were later regarded as outlaws and personally attacked at the site.


How many of you care to join a site that after you invest time screws you over? That might explain the activity of the successor of GH.

GH did not have a charter - they had trust until the founder sold it and what it originally stood for.

 

The active database implements the policies of the owner who sees no distinction between or within hybrids and non-hybrids. There is no detectable 'hybrid' at "GreenHybrid."

For grins, perhaps you' all might approach the owners, I understand it has changed hands at least once again. They may be willing to sell the domain. But you know, we've wander off from "Fallacy; The Troll's True Vulnerability." Thread drift is one thing but this is beginning to wander off the reservation. <wink>

Time to ask for a moderator check?

Bob Wilson

 

Call things for what they are.

Call a database a database.

GreenHybrid never had a charter nor was it ever led in a principled manner.

That GH has not been brought down makes as much sense as many of GM's past decisions.

Bob, I think the moderators will see your posts today for what they are, so if you want to bring it to their attention, be my guest.

 

Going back to the question of Trolls, one signature the Wiki article brought out is their attempt to seem like they are part of the community. One troll symptom is the absence of original content.

Trolls constantly cite 'stuff they heard' or 'Google scrummed' from the network. This is different from ignorance or someone standing there with a broken Prius or hybrid in their hands. That is why it is important to treat newbies kindly until we can figure out if they have original content or righteous indignation. Still Troll behavior is predictable and can easily be exploited for "lessons learned."

Bob Wilson