Brakes, Gas Pedals, Re-calls, Facts and Myth's

Myth: News outlets sensationalize in order to sell.
Fact: News outlets sensationalize in order to sell.

Myth: The Prius braking problem is a feeling.
Fact: Increased braking distance is just dangerous.

Myth: Toyota has great fit and finish.
Fact: 75% of those responding on PC had plastic to plastic rattling in the dash. Even more impressive is that a significant number didn't mind it.

Myth: I would never drive a Prius.
Fact: I love this car and will patiently wait for the software update (remembering to keep a little extra distance in front.)

 

Fact, Prius Gen II owners have been complaining about this since 2004, and Toyota chose to ignore it.

It's finally biting them in the behind for Gen III, and they most definitely deserve it. Hopefully this means they'll finally fix all the Gen IIs as well.

 

hahahaha- I'd have to borrow yours if I lost- I don't own one!

 

I'd like to see more comments from people comparing and contrasting this problem to the transition from traditional to ABS brakes.

That transition definitely required re-learning how to brake in certain foul weather conditions. Early statistics found that ABS was providing much less benefit than expected. This was partially attributed to drivers being startled by the new and disconcerting feel when ABS activated, and responding incorrectly for ABS.

This is the reason I'm not buying the argument that new braking systems must feel just like the old ones. ABS was not held to that standard.

 

Fact: my Prius was doing 10mph when my wife touched the brakes as she approached a stop sign. The brakes locked up (anti-lock didn't do a thing) and she slid into a snowbank, damaging the front bumper. The road was glare ice.

Fact: two of my granddaughters were in the car and agree that the car did nothing but slide without the ability to steer.

Fact: glare ice means loss of traction. Why did it lock up? It's winter and for some reason the the anti-lock didn't seem to work as expected.

Conclusion: I still love my Prius and I'm writing it off to Michigan weather and ice. I'll go in for the computer chip update and conclude that my Prius just did the same thing as my Ford Escape 4x4 did last year, my Honda did last spring, and my PT Cruiser (ouch!) did a few years back. IT'S WINTER!

 

Sources Geodesign?

 

Why do you assume that it will only happen at 10 MPH? How about doing your math on it happen at 60 MPH.

E.g. You are traveling on a busy highway and the car in front of you slowly slowing down. Your Prius hit a potholes and lost the brake for 1/2 a second. How many feet did you travel while the car in front of you continue slowing. You get panic and floor the brake and fiction brake kick in and your Prius stop right away. The car behind you run into your back and puncture your gas tank which lead to an explosion that ......

Of cause this is only an assumption. If we base our thinking on assumption, we have to assume a lot more then one scenarios to call it reasonable assumption, not fact.

 

It's a fair assumption because those of us who've had it happen ONLY have it happen at very slow speeds...usually considerably LESS than 10mph.

 

I don't know that I was the only unfortunate person that had it happen to me on the highway. I was doing around 50 MPH when that happen and I really got panic but still managed to modulate the brake to avoid hitting the car in front of me. That is a fact, it must be better than any fair assumption. So please adjust your fair assumption to include my experience.

 

A relevant read: Manufacturing the Audi Scare (Jan, 1990)

From bac's thread. (Brad, hope you don't mind.)

 

You point out the very reason why it's an issue for some and not for others. Some who are recently coming from non-hybrid cars are not ready and prepared properly for the new technology. It is intentionally different.

It's not wrong, it is different. It was intentionally built to be different. This is what hybrids are, new and different. They require a new skill set or at least a new level of awareness in how they are to be operated. It is entirely wrong to expect that these vehicles which are now the pinnacle of automotive technology in the world are going to feel like your grandfather's 1960's Cadillac.

Not being willing to relearn how the hybrids are different only points to inflexibility.

Those others who have years and hundres of thousands of seat-miles in the hybrids are not the ones complaining herein or to the press or asking lawyers in Canada and the US to file class action suits. It's the new less knowledgable and less aware owners that have unreasonable expectations that somehow these spectacularly innovative vehicles are going to feel like the vehicles of the 20th century.

No one put a gun to any person's head and forced them to buy a Prius. No one turned off the internet prior to that purchase so that the new buyers couldn't research the vehicle to death. But now these few new owners suddenly feel that their feelings have been hurt and because of that they need to be compensated monetarily and have to have the vehicle watered down to their preferences.

In case you can't tell I really despise whiners. However, if the software fix smoothes out the bumpiness and quiets the panic and hysteria without any loss of effectiveness in the vehicle then I guess it's not too much in order to avoid having to bear with the continual sobbing.

 

I don't own a Prius, so I'm breaking your requested protocal but I do have some insight into this reality.

Parts from outside suppliers and vendors are produced to Toyota's standards and with Toyota's approval.
Toyota has never tried to blame CTS, nor have they said that the pedals weren't manufactured to their standards.
Ultimately the buck stops with Toyota, they are responsible for the quality or lack of quality of everything they put or allow to be put in their automobiles.
I'm sure CTS does supply parts for other automakers but the design specifications are probably different for each part with each automaker.
Suppliers have to try to verify the quality of the parts they are providing and manufacturers (Toyota Motor Corporation) have to accept the part if they feel it meets there presented standards. It's a partnership. So far neither party is blaming the other. I think CTS has made a statement to the affect that the parts produced were produced to Toyotas standards. Toyota has never denied this. So my feeling is this was a defect or condition that simply wasn't detected until out in the field. Should it of been detectable or detected? That is a seperate debate.

 

Because this issue has nothing to do with speeds at or above 25 mph. If you're at 60 mph and hit your brakes, either
a) you want to bleed off speed in order to slow down with no special urgency, or
b) it's a panic situation

In the first case even if it did happen, and it can't, then it doesn't matter because there's no special emergency.

In the second case where it's a panic situation then the issue is non-existent because the regen/friction transition is bypassed and only the friction brakes on all 4 wheels come into play.

IOW you're making up imaginary situations in order to keep the fear and hysteria level elevated for no reason.

 

I encourage everyone to go read the complaints at the NHTSA website. Make sure you check the box to read the details of the submitted reports. You will see that the vast majority who describe this condition say it happens when they were attempting to stop or initiating a turn. Those are low speed operations. If you're attempting to stop at an intersection or make a turn you're NOT moving at 60mph!!! I contend that most of these are likely happening at or near single digit speeds. So, attempting to replicate this at normal driving speeds and just applying brakes simply isn't indicative of the speeds and braking attempts that MOST people are hinting at.

 

Since you asked.... here are the recall figues from 2004 through 2009 ( ,000 of units recalled )

......... GM ..... Ford ..... Chrys ..... Toyota
04 ...10,500 .. 5,800 .... 5,800 ...... 1,100
05 .... 5,000 .. 6,700 ...... 800 ...... 2,400
06 .... 1,400 .. 1,700 .... 1,800 ........ 700
07 ...... 500 ... 5,500 .... 2,100 ........ 600
08 .... 1,700 .. 1,600 ....... 300 ...... 1,000
09 .... 2,200 .. 4,500 ....... 600 ...... 4,900
Tot:. 21,300 . 25,800 .. 11,400 ... 10,700

Source: NHTSA/ODI Safety Recall Database

 

There are two other factors that are never mentioned in these anecdotal references at NHTSA nor herein. It is mentioned in Toyota's preliminary announcement.

1. The road condition is critical to whether the situation occurs or doesn't occur. In our area the roads are in pretty good condition with little or no ice, no frost heaves and not much in potholes or uneven pavements. External environment.
2. Braking while turning. After thinking about this I didn't think that I did it, so I checked. I don't. I never brake when I'm in the turn. I coast or brake on the straitaway before the turn; let off the pedal entirely and coast halfway into the turn; then accelerate while finishing the turn. Style of driving.