What really bothers me about the recall

We'll never know who said exactly what to who and when.

What we have known for many years is the entire industry is painfully behind with information sharing in contrast to what consumers have recently adopted... as with forums just like this.

Old school timing had been acceptable, a very different expectation to the new standard being established as of the recent outcry. Too bad consumers weren't aware of this years ago... the very thing that encouraged Prius owners of the time to push for change. Ironic, eh?

It's a huge wake-up call for the entire industry.
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There are things that have happened as the multiple recalls have happened that I think Toyota handled poorly. But since this was a historically scaled recall, coupled with overly intense exposure (imo) and with the reality that Toyota is also a victim of their own success, (it's really the 1st time Toyota has had to deal with a high profile recall with negative publicity) I can be forgiving for much of it.

If you're talking about the Prius brake recall? It's the debated process of discovering, defining and making a problem official. Before updating the software, the problem wasn't official, therefore owners were stuck. Dealerships were stuck. Before the decision to change calibration then "officially" there was nothing wrong with the 2010 brakes.

Actually if you consider that the 2010 hasn't been available for even a full calendar year, reaction to the issue was actually pretty fast.

Everything else becomes debatable, argueable. I don't give Toyota a free pass, nor do I blindly attack. Certainly given Toyota's overall history I think Toyota has suffered greatly from a disproportionate amount of negative media attention. BUT some of it, a lot of it, they earned.

Negative or Positive, I want proof. If Toyota did something wrong, give me more than opinion and inuendo, show me the e-mails, show me the timeline, and show me why it's a failure any greater than any other auto manufacturer. Otherwise, I'm growing quite numb to the accusation and inuendo and fear mongering from the media, and I say, let Toyota get back to the business of selling cars.

 

True, every company does this, categorically deny any problems until they find a solution, unless it's serious enough that "they're aware of it and working on it." Apple is a prime example if you visit the mac forums. Sure, it's not good for the customer but it's not good for the company either if they admit a problem at the first instance.

Until they change their tune it's stupid to waste your time and energy over it.

 

I avoided buying a Toyota until Big Oil gave me no choice. So far, I have no regrets since I've had no problems. That's to establish that I'm no lifelong Toyotaphile.

What I am is a skeptic. I've had more than one vehicle I had to check the floor mats periodically. I always do when I rent a car. Every car or truck I've ever owned has acted strangely when trying to stop while on a slippery surface. I've never taken my foot off the brake because they weren't working (quite the opposite once coming down the Mt Evans Road). I see too many drivers who drive with both feet. I drove with a sprained right ankle for a couple of months when I shouldn't have. No damage done but...

I do believe that Toyota or any manufacturer would be correct in taking awhile to figure out if there is a problem or not. I do not believe that every brake system in every vehicle made by any manufacturer can be perfect 100% of the time. And accidents happen.

Most of all, I remember the media frenzy of the 80s over Audi's "unintended acceleration" problems. What they didn't bother to tell us was that none of the hundreds of lawsuits were won by the plaintiffs. I would rather believe a little old lady from Pasadena that she put her foot on the brake pedal, not the other one, but I can't. Especially if a lawsuit is involved.

Ever notice how many new stories about "bad things" mention lawsuits?

 

I am 100% agree with you.

 

Stay tuned (watch CSPAN), as this will be the main topic of the Congressional hearings due to start in a few weeks. Members of Congress want to find out what Toyota knew, when they knew it, and did they try to hide it....

For sure Congressional members of these sub-committees will be posturing for votes back home with their constituents...but there may be some revealing information that actually comes out of these 3 different hearings. Keep watching.

 

By the way, and speaking as an engineer, let me just say that getting 100's of complaints from Toyota customers involving (perhaps) 10's of millions of vehicles, would not necessarily constitute a problem in Toyota's, or any manufacturers eyes.

Yes, they may have received 100's of complaints, but until these complaints are validated, and replicated by internal/independent tests/experiments, Toyota would not be in a position to definitively say there was a wide-spread problem with many of their vehicles. Now, if this testing was performed, and systemic problems were found in many of their vehicles...and covered this up...then ya, they should lose a lot of customer good will and confidence built up over the past 2 decades.

But knowing that there are a small percentage of Toyota customers that have reported problems, and then validating and replicating these problems, is another whole can or worms.

The Audi 5000 problem, with it's unintended acceleration in the mid-80's, set the mark and was first blasted by CBS in the show, 60 Minutes. Even though Audi was only selling around 50,000 cars at that time, reports of unintended acceleration were in the thousands. Staggeringly high percentage. YET, and to my knowledge...after extensive, and exhaustive testing...NO, I repeat, no electrical or mechanical flaws were identified. Audi initially blamed "driver error". Ultimately, Audi went to the lock-out and moved the brake and gas peddles further apart. Audi almost went under in this country, and had they not been owned by the larger parent company, VW, they most assuredly would have bitten the dust. But no problems were ever found.

 

An interesting take-away is the "energy" equation changing. We couldn't just let this one blow over.

The internet has empowered consumers, giving them the ability to panic on a scale we've never encountered before... fed by a few who intentionally what to stir trouble.

Rather than an UPDATE, there emerged a hysteria screaming for a forced RECALL and someone's head to roll.
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I am sad to see the commercials with Toyota Apologizing for "letting us down" because I don't feel that they have, and I have never lost faith in Toyota.. With all the media hype, it is sad to see Toyota feels they are forced to stoop to the level of their accusers by apologizing.

 

By January the brake fix had already been identified, gone through engineering, QC and the entire supply chain. Vehicles on the lots of dealers already had the fix, yet they had given no indication that they were planning on fixing it. Had I known it was a possibility I could have avoided my (admittedly minor) incident. All I ended up with was a scratch on my car's bumper.
What pisses me off is that Toyota decided to gamble with my daughter's life. Sliding into traffic was just as possible as sliding into a snow bank at the top of my driveway. Do I still drive the car? Yes. Once I knew what was possible it was a simple matter to avoid. Overall, I still like the car. I just find Toyota's behavior in this reprehensible.
It smacks of Ford's actuarial analysis of defects in the 70's that determined that the cost of a recall would be more expensive than court awards for victims in the expected number of fatalities. So they just let the people die. While not as severe, the principle is the same. They valued their brand over the lives of their customers.

 

Hey 32Colors...you payin' attention?

 

Unfortunately, I don't agree with that assessment regardless of what others think. I believe Toyota would have released the brake fix as a simple TSB eventually if they weren't forced to do it earlier. This is not a case of gambling with life, and we may never know if the four accidents suspected to be caused by the brake issue or the poster you quoted are actually due to user error (going too fast for the braking distance or not paying attention or stopping in time). People like to blame their own faults on others and this brake issue is a convenient scapegoat.

 

People tend to have an idea and defend it to the end no matter what the evidence.

No one has proved that the hundreds of non accident reports to safety agengies are true. No one has proved that the injury accidents reported were caused by the braking software. Luckily there have been no serious injuries before the recall.

What we do have is acknowledgment by toyota that there is a problem, and a statement of what that was and that "Toyota has fixed the problem." We do know from toyota's history with unintended acceleration that they have blamed driver error for years. Courts and governments are now looking at evidence of that claim, and the preponderance of evidence points to Toyota being wrong or lying about that.

I am happy that claims of driver error have ended and Toyota has admitted to a "problem: in the braking matter. You can believe what you want to believe. For me it not only quacks like a duck, but there are some ducklings running around.

 

In the thick of it

It's understandable that Toyota wanted to make sure there was a concern (problem?) before decided to make the computerized adjustment.

It's been determined that there is a better way to control the FEEL of the car in a 2010 model... means that my 2007 has a characteristic that a 2010 doesn't.

I never felt this was a problem - just a quirk of my 2007 car, which in 106K miles still stops when I press the brake, even when it's using the skid control and the yellow light/squiggly car icon is lit.

Dianne

 

Re: In the thick of it

According to owners already had the recall done. We are now equal, with 200 ms of delay. But you assumed that 200 ms and 700 ms (before recall) were the same! No, that is 3.5 times of delay that we were having and you stand on the side saying that not a problem. When did a summer bug became an expert on snow!

 

Re: In the thick of it

This quirk on my car, software adjustment on 2010 isn't about snow. Not at all. It's about the ABS and the stability control. I feel it on rough roads, speed bumps, and even uneven pavement between driveway and curb. No snow here!

 

I think that's the other thing the carmakers learned from Audi. In the court of public opinion, its probably less damaging to plead guilty to a crime you didn't commit than to continue fighting to prove your innocence.

 

I agree with most of what you are saying. But FACTS aside...blame aside...it's now about Toyota's image.

The jackels are out in full force - again. I read tonight that the critics are now looking at Corolla's steering problems. Supposedly, there have been about 100 complaints. Toyota sold 1.3 million Corolla's last year. If the critics think that any car with millions sold is only going to have a handful (or no) complaints, they're smoking something. But the lattest thing with Corolla just illustrates that the vultures are out, and I'm more convinced than ever that there are forces behind this smear of Toyota. Some of the complaints are warrented, but now it's chum in the wter to attract the sharks for the feeding frenzy. Out of control.

 

You don't want my 2001 Chevy Blazer then. It does exactly the same thing. And I've taken it on some really rugged 4 wheel roads.

When it happens on your Prius, what do you do? Do you pull your foot off the brake pedal? I hope not.