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Place your bets: Make your call on 2010 global average temperature

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by chogan2, Feb 18, 2010.

?
  1. Yes

    8 vote(s)
    44.4%
  2. No

    10 vote(s)
    55.6%
  1. chogan2

    chogan2 Senior Member

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    The purpose of this thread is to solicit your bets, now, on whether or not the 2010 global average temperature will or will not be the warmest in the modern (instrumental) record.

    What I am looking for (see details below) is a simple yes or no statement: Yes, I expect it will break the record, or no, I do not.

    Rational people don't pay attention to a single year of data, in the context of global warming. I've said that repeatedly in threads here.

    So, why am I opening this thread, on this topic, now?

    PART I: THE RATIONALE


    1) I think that a new record would have a profound effect on public opinion, entirely out-of-proportion to its actual scientific (or even statistical) significance. As I read the other day, "We are truly in a race between the melting of the permafrost and the awakening of the public." The fact that 2009 was the 2nd warmest year on record (per NASA GISS) was essentially un-reported in the media. But if the temperature breaks a record, that, I think, should be hard to ignore. We Americans are hard-wired to pay attention to #1.

    2) I'd like to see a simple "put up or shut up" from the skeptics here. Enough said. Keep it simple, please. Yes, no, or if you don't want to play, then here's a thank you in advance for not messing up my sandbox. However, if you don't have the courage to give a simple yes or no, you lose the moral high ground for dumping on me if I'm wrong.

    3) Some very smart people have suggested a reasonable chance of a new record. Both NASA GISS (in their 2008 summary) and the British Meterological Office have suggested a good chance of setting a new record in the next year or two. Obviously, given year-to-year variation, all you can do is offer odds, but both sets of experts suggest a reasonable likelihood of a new record.

    PART II: RELEVANT FACTORS TO CONSIDER

    There are a handful of factors that you might consider before placing your bet.

    Global mean temperature is affected by at least the following factors:

    • The slow buildup of greenhouse gases.
    • Variation in man-made and natural particulates and aerosols.
    • Changes in solar irradiance.
    • Short-term fluctuations in sea-surface temperature (or ocean heat storage), mainly, El Nino/La Nina.
    • Similar "natural cycles" of longer duration, such as long-term oscillations in sea-surface temperature in the Atlantic and Pacific.
    • Major volcanoes and other one-time events.
    • Unknown and unanticipated factors (such as the recently published study of stratospheric water vapor variation).
    Probably the list is not complete, but those are some well-proven ones, and certainly enough to think about.

    Of these, only two are somewhat predictable and vary over the short term: Solar irradiance and El Nino/La Nina.

    Solar irradiance is just coming out of a low, as shown here, from NASA, via the University of Colorado:

    TSI Data







    [​IMG]



    To keep this in perspective, you can see that the average value from peak (2004 or so) to trough (2008-9) was less than, say, half a watt per square meter. By comparison, the impact of all manmade GHG changes since the start of the industrial revolution is pegged somewhere around 3 watts/square meter, as you can see here if you wish:

    Data @ NASA GISS: Forcings in GISS Climate Model


    In addition, it takes some time for those variations to work their way through the system, so it's not clear how quickly the pickup in solar irradiance will be felt in terms of global temperatures.

    In contrast to the sun, El Nino/La Nina is *not* a net energy input to the earth. It's just a description of whether or not warm water is building up on the surface of the southern Pacific, or not. The interesting thing is about it is that conditions tend to move slowly, so they are somewhat predictable over periods of a few months.

    NOAA is the source of record in the US for information the current state of El Nino, because that tends to have a reasonably strong and predictable impact on US weather.

    NOAA/PMEL/TAO El Nino: Forecasts

    They publish a weekly update with an ensemble of predictions about the current El Nino. Right now, we've moved to an El Nino phase that is expected to weaken and last through the spring. It was not an exceptionally warm El Nino by historical standards. Here's the projections as of the time of this posting:

    [​IMG]

    Basically, sea surface temperatures in the portion of the Pacific monitored for El Nino are about 2 degrees C above "normal", but that is expected to dissipate by this summer or so.

    What do temperatures look like now? Both the satellite and ground-based data show January 2010 was a warm month, globally -- unsurprising given that we appear to be at the peak of an El Nino event.

    Here's the UAH satellite data as of January 2010:

    Latest Global Temperatures Roy Spencer, Ph. D.

    [​IMG]



    For what it's worth, a) there are alternative reconstructions of temperature from the satellites, and b ) the satellite data tend to be highly variable from month to month (as January 2010 clearly illustrates).

    For the land-based estimates, there are also several data sources. For starters, I'm going to point to the data for NASA GISS, though different series are available from NOAA, the British Meterological Office, and the Japanese Meterological Office, each using different methods.

    NASA GISS also shows that January 2010 was a warm month (sorry for the lack of graphs here):
    The web page with descriptions:
    Data @ NASA GISS: GISS Surface Temperature Analysis (GISTEMP)
    The data itself:
    http://data.giss.nasa.gov/gistemp/tabledata/GLB.Ts+dSST.txt


    The numbers:
    All time record annual anomaly (Jan to Dec): 2005, 0.62 degrees C above the 1950-1981 average.
    January 2010: 0.71 degrees C above the January 1950-2010 average.

    Don't make much of the monthly data, or of the rough agreement between the ground-based and satellite data. Both of those will change substantially from month to month.

    THE CHALLENGE

    I'm going to use the NASA GISS land-sea index as the data source of record for this. It's the one I'm most familiar with, and it is a series of record.

    To summarize:
    January 2010 was a warm month. But there is a lot of month-to-month variation. Solar irradiance appears to be slowly increasing slightly. We appear to be at or near the peak of the current El Nino, based on the ensemble of models presented above. And, stuff happens -- one year's temperature will vary for essentially random reasons.

    So, do you think 2010 will break the record? That's based on the NASA GISS combined land-sea index as cited above? Yes or no, and if you want to offer a reason, please do, I'd like to hear it. I'll refresh this thread from time to time, and in January 2011, God willing, we'll see how the predictions fared.

    Oh, my bet: It's a horse race. Objectively, we're at the peak of the El Nino and we're only marginally over the all-2005 average (the warmest year in the instrumental record). But yes, I'll bet that it breaks the record.

    Finally, as we say in the US, tie goes to the runner. If it ties the record, that counts as breaking it.
     
  2. blueumbrella

    blueumbrella Member of Prius Regeneration

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    I would suggest you make this a poll. I think the temperature this year will set a new record.
     
  3. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

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    I betting it will!

    I will also add, that it is my guess that it will be by a wide margin.
     
  4. chogan2

    chogan2 Senior Member

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    I never even thought to do that (head slap). Yes, let me see if I can restructure this.

    Done, it's now a poll. Who knew that was so easy. Thanks for the suggestion.

    That said, I'd also like to have individuals put themselves on record, here, yes or no. Fully realizing that nothing here is permanent. But wanting some ... accountability, I guess, beyond just the anonymous answer to the poll.
     
  5. bigcwill

    bigcwill Junior Member

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    What bet will get us the most in government grant money? (The new way to do science...er formerly called science.)
     
  6. chogan2

    chogan2 Senior Member

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    Yes or no, first, please, then you can kibbitz. Is 2010 going to break the record or not?
     
  7. drees

    drees Senior Member

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    It is likely be a record based on trends and data I've seen so far. We'll see if it actually turns out that way or not - have another 10 months!
     
  8. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    I dislike this quite a lot.
    It is not about climate, just about weather. The accurate database of past performance is way too small, less than 150 years. (News media will claim warmest ever, when they mean warmest just recently)
     
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  9. chogan2

    chogan2 Senior Member

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    Yes, a single year is essentially meaningless. It's weather. But it is what will get attention.

    Absolutely, the popular press will mis-report it, no doubt. But that's independent of this poll -- going to happen anyway.

    And yes, you can't make a single year comparison to the reconstructed record. I think the finest resolution claimed even for reconstruction of fairly recent periods is on the order of a decade or decades.

    So you're right in terms of the reality of the situation.

    That said, for the reasons stated originally, I'd still like to do this.

    As a matter of observation, I'm struck by the fact that the smartest organizations in this area (NASA GISS, British Hadley) have both stuck their necks out to say, eh, there's a decent chance of breaking the record soon. Not hugely different from 50/50 as I read their comments, but obviously that nuance is going to be lost on most readers. Given that there's an entire, devoted body of people who stand ready to harass them for any reason whatsoever, why go out on a limb for what ought to be a relatively rare (and certainly largely unpredictable) event?

    Your points are well-taken. I'm going to do this anyway. Would you care to offer an opinion despite your reservations?
     
  10. chogan2

    chogan2 Senior Member

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    What I have learned so far:

    Three people who expect the record to be broken have said so publicly, with one additional "likely".

    None of the folks who are so absolutely sure that the globe is cooling will say on the record that they guess 2010 won't break a record.

    None of the folks who are absolutely sure that Hadley/NASA/NOAA rig/bias the data will say on the record that they think 2010 will break the record.

    I find the contrast between the incredibly strong rhetoric of the postings here and the unwillingness publicly to hazard a guess on a simple yes/no question to be interesting and informative.

    We've had one cogent and well-reasoned explanation of why this exercise is unhelpful from the standpoint of understanding the actual reality of climate. Which I agree with, but I think this is more about understanding individuals' understanding of climate.

    Finally, in general, there's little interest. As of this writing, there's six votes split 50/50. All of you who voted, thanks. We'll see if interest in this changes as the year progresses.
     
  11. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    I am sure it the 2010 global average temperature will not be the warmest ever, it is possible it will be the warmest since accurate weather keeping, but I doubt it. Either way, it tells us nothing about climate change.
     
  12. mojo

    mojo Senior Member

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    Im certain that if its the warmest or coldest in recent history, it will be meaningless.

    What I can predict is that we are coming to the end of our current global warming period.
    Global warming periods between ice ages(interglacial), over the past
    2 million years ,have lasted from 15-20,000 years.
    The global warming period we are in currently, has lasted 18,000 years.
    My prediction is that sometime between today and 2,000 years, the temp will drop drastically for about 110,000 years of ice age until the next period of warming.
    BTW, There has been no correlation between CO2 levels and global warming periods in the past million years.
     
  13. Frayadjacent

    Frayadjacent Resident Conservative

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    Anecdotal, for sure, but I've lived in Austin Texas for 20 years now. This January, I saw colder temperatures on several days than I have in the previous two decades I've lived here.

    I saw 17 degrees one night, which was a record. Quite a few local cold records were broken. Before this year, the coldest temperature I recall seeing was around 25 degrees.

    If we are in a warming trend globally, why are we seeing not only abnormal cold, but RECORD cold?

    Thus I vote NO, 2010 will not be the hottest year on record.
     
  14. chogan2

    chogan2 Senior Member

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    All right. I disagree with your analysis, but I admire the fact that you're willing to go on record, and that you have a straightforward logical reason for believing what you believe.

    I'm not even going to get in your face by posting a graph here, but if you want to look, here's a press release about research on that exact issue: If the scientists predicting global warming are right, what should we be seeing right now and down the road, in terms of all-time-lows in the US? The answer's reasonable (fewer lows, more highs) but it's not as clear-cut as you might think.

    Record high temperatures far outpace record lows across U.S. | UCAR
     
  15. tripp

    tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

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    I'm gonna say "NO", but not because I disagree with the climate science, but rather because it seems like the chances of a record year are a bit less than something less extreme. Will be interesting to see now. I'm hoping for cool and wet, myself. Something a bit like last year would be brilliant (CO had a very pleasant summer in 2009 and we set some rainfall records... more of the same please).
     
  16. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Please post more choices for us to make ... such as:

    A) Um ... I don't know
    B ) cake! LOTS of cake!
    C) What's the point?
    D) Um ... what do I win
    E) 180 degrees, that way I'll be paralell.
    F) What was the question?
    G) As what's described?
    H) Sometimes

    .
     
  17. MJFrog

    MJFrog Active Member

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    OK, firstly, I voted NO, 2010 will not be the warmest year on record.

    Of course, anything can happen, but I believe the odds are not in favor of 2010 being a record warm year. I base this mainly on the fact that 2010/2011 appears to be a transition period between El Nino/La Nina, thus favoring (though not guaranteeing) a cooler year.

    Where do I stand on the AGW issue?
    1. The earth is warming. The data, flawed though it may be, shows that it is.
    2. Atmospheric CO2 is increasing, probably due to human activity.
    3. Do I think point #1 is directly or in large part because of #2? Absolutely not!
    4. Do I think human activity is directly or in large part causing #1? No, not to any great extent.
    5. Do I think human activity is having an effect on #1? Yes, just not as large as the AGW group would have us believe.

    Why do I support #5, but not #2? Because if #3 were true, we would not have seen the current warming 'pause', nor the temperature declines of the 50s--70s happening in spite of continued increases in atmospheric CO2.

    So what do I think is causing #1? Well, if you have a large cooling event (i.e. the little ice age), and it comes to an end, then you start having a period of increasing temperatures (read: global warming). The fact that the beginning of the industrial revolution coincides with the beginning of that warming period is, I believe, a coincidence (note the irony of the root of those two words!).

    Again, why do I support #5? Because I happen to believe that habitat destruction and desertification along with increased urban sprawl are contributing to global warming. How much is still debatable, but I think it is much more than that attributed to CO2.

    What do I attribute the cooling of the 50s--70s to? I don't have any data to support it (so that makes it pure speculation of course), but consider the following:
    WWII resulted in a large ramping up of factory output (war machines and supplies). This was followed by even more post-war factory production and the resulting pollution. Think immense amounts of soot, sulfur dioxide, etc. In other words, a lot of particulates spewed into the atmosphere that in effect, caused an artificial shading of the earth. Net effect: temporary global cooling. Do I think this overrode (overpowered) the effect of CO2? Absolutely not!
    In the late 60s, early 70s we had the first effective anti-pollution laws being put into practice...resulting in major reductions of particle and sulfur dioxide pollutants. Net effect: resumption of the previous warming trend. Congratulations environmentalists! You just caused increased global warming!!! :rolleyes:

    In the late 90s, the solar sunspot cycle moved into an extended minimum. Normally, the cycle would have reversed itself by now and we would be moving toward its peak. The low solar sunspot incidence has continued several years now beyond its normal reverse (there ARE signs it is now picking up finally). In effect, a touch of the Maunder Minimum that is blamed for the Little Ice Age.

    What happens from here out? HTHSIK?

    [edit]as of this post, the count is 5 yes, 8 no. [/edit]
     
  18. wavydavy

    wavydavy New Member

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    Great cut and paste argument,...I vote for cooler in some places and warmer in others. Do I qualify for Govt money?
     
  19. malorn

    malorn Senior Member

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    If the CRU measures the temps it will break all records for sure.
     
  20. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    THUMBS DOWN to Malorn for quoting the entire LONG o.p. just to post one snide remark!!!

    Now, my response: I vote NO, I think 2010 will not be the warmest since such records have been kept.

    There is no doubt that global temperature is rising, and no doubt that humans are contributing substantially to it. However, the actual amount is a small fraction of a degree per year. The know-nothings refuse to comprehend that in global climate, a tenth of a degree can disrupt global weather patterns enough to have disastrous effects on agriculture, sea levels, etc. But the small size of the increments being discussed means that few years will show new records. If only one year in three shows a record, then the chances are 66.7% that there will not be a record in any given year.

    I'm betting the statistics when you ask me what I think this year will do.

    But the averages are rising as we dump humongous quantities of carbon into the atmosphere.

    So the question of a record in one particular year is meaningless.

    Because if people sit up and take note because the media hypes up a record-setting year, those same people will do an about-face when the same media hypes up the next year's failure to set a new record.
     
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