Justify the Note...

This was really eye-opening for me. Thank you for doing this.

Using your formula, and increasing the gas price to our current, local average while also adjusting the total miles driven to reflect my driving habits, I came up with the following as it relates to my recently sold-off LR3:

The Land Rover LR3:
8 mpg
22.8 gallon tank
183 miles per tank
$67.71 per tank of gas
109 fill ups in 20K miles
$7,380.39 for gas in 3 years

The Toyota Prius:
52 mpg combined
11.9 gallon tank
618.8 miles per tank
$35.34 per tank of gas
32.3 fill ups in 20K miles
$1,141 for gas in 3 years

A savings of $6,239.39 for 3 years worth of gas by having the Prius.

Now, to print this out and present it to the missus

 

I don't think I got 52 mpg yet, here in MN they use 10% ethanol in the gas plus the winter cold zaps your mileage!!I am happy with 40 mpg!!l

 

The Prius is an excellent car. It is a very clean and fuel-efficient car, probably the best you can buy on both counts.

BUT:

A new car is never the most economical transportation.

AND:

Debt is a monkey on your back that should be avoided at all costs. Buying a house can sometimes make more sense than renting, and if you need transportation and simply do not have the cash, you may have to borrow. But if you must borrow to buy a car, make it a reliable late-model used car so as to keep debt to a minimum.

There are reasons other than financial for buying a new car: Reliability, features, the latest gadgets, and the enjoyment of having a new car. But these should only be considered IF you can afford to pay cash and you don't need the cash for something more important.

If you are not happy with the fuel consumption or pollution level of your present vehicle, you may want to look for a recent-model used car with better specs. But going into debt to the tune of $400 per month for a new car, is ALWAYS a bad idea. And how much of that is interest? Buying on credit costs a lot more than paying cash. If you cannot pay cash, don't buy it.

When the time comes that you can really afford to buy a new car, and if that is a priority for you, then consider the Prius.

 

Even if I have to take a slight loss which lets face it nowadays is likely I still wouldn't put out the money to buy a car outright for cash. If I tie my $30,000 into a car its tied, if I keep it invested and at some point I want it or need it for something else...its there.

Its worth the really small amount of interest you pay on a 60 month car loan to hold onto my cash, thats my opinion.

Again, thats your opinion. As long as the debt is manageable and not beyond what someone can afford I don't see the issue.

For instance since mortgage interest is tax deductible I personally don't plan to own a home with any more than 20% equity so long as I have an income to deduct that interest from.

Rent is debt too...rent is debt that you are paying to increase the value of someone else's investment...so to me paying rent when you can own something makes no sense.

I would assume that you have done very well doing things your way, but I have also done very well doing things my way so watch out with the preaching.

 

There comes a time in every car's life when the costs to keep operating it start to escalate. Two other factors to consider are reliability (is it a big deal if you miss a half-day of work waiting for a tow truck?) and depreciation (aka: trade-in value). And while the depreciation curve tends to bottom out late in life, reliability begins to plummet and operating costs can spike.

Depreciation is fairly predictable, but repairs aren't, and reliability is an intangible that depends a lot on your personal situation.

 

Having done well is no indication that you couldn't have done better.

Debt is part of a larger equation involving liquidity, return on investment, opportunity cost, the time value of money, and special subsidies such as mortgage interest deductions. There is no one simple answer as to whether it makes sense to borrow. One has to look at all of the factors, and then toss in intangibles such as pride of ownership and fun.

Daniel is only offering general advice, and it is good advice: avoid debt if you can. Debt is a slippery slope which has claimed many in our society. Debt can be a useful tool, but it can also be an unforgiving burden.

Tom

 

Well since you have no idea who I am, what I have, or what I have accomplished I would be completely uninterested in your assessment of how I could have done better.

This is 100% agree with

I might change that advice to read, "Use debt as a financial management tool...not as a means to purchase things you cannot afford"

 

Which doesn't change the validity of the original statement. I, for one, know that I could have done a lot better financially, but I have made many quality-of-life decisions that altered my ability to make money. I don't regret my decisions; I suspect you don't regret yours.

+1

SWO3ES, from another thread I had gathered that you were a leasing person. If that is the case, why the strong interest in this thread?

Tom

 

I'm a leasing person *for me*. My original interest in this thread had to do with the OP's desire to somehow justify the purchase of a new vehicle as the financially prudent thing to do...which it never is which is what I posted. If he wants to buy the vehicle and he can afford it he should buy it. However, he should not fool himself info thinking that he is making a "financially prudent" decision, because his decision to trade an old car for a new car is going to cost him money.

What I absolutely cannot stand is when people put their opinions out there to be the *truth* and preach to others about how their way is the right way and the only way...when really it isn't. When people make blanket statements like "You should never borrow money to buy a car" or "Leasing is always a stupid thing to do and there are no pros" I am just always going to come out and put that into the context of what it really is...the person's opinion and not a statement of fact. Its something I'm just not going to pass over.

There's a different between saying "I have always felt like you should never borrow money for a car" or "In my opinion leasing is never a good idea" and making a strong statement of fact like "Borrowing money to buy a car is stupid" or "Leasing is always stupid". The former is going to be the starting point for a discussion that everyone can benefit from...the latter is going to start a flamewar.

Notice in what I say I am able to articulate my viewpoint without shutting down the validity of what the other side is saying. The other side in this argument is just not willing to do that.

 

Good post, and well stated.

Not that it necessarily applies to this thread, but not all statements are opinions or viewpoints. Some statements are facts and leave no room for interpretation or another viewpoint. In other situations, there may be implied qualifiers to an absolute statement, but the qualifiers are either so unlikely or so obvious that only an engineer or a lawyer would feel compelled to explicitly state them.

"Balanced" journalism has become endemic in recent years, with journalists always wanting to present both sides, even when one side is composed of wacked out nut jobs wearing tinfoil hats. When a child is molested, these journalists have to find someone to explain how child molesters are misunderstood and unfairly persecuted. In this sort of situation the other side deserves to get shut down. Unfortunately, this notion of being fair and balanced has started creeping into our politically correct society, where we now think that we have to allow equal time for crazy and stupid people.

Tom

 

I filled her up today. 9.789 gallons, 507.3 miles driven on last tank = 51.82 mpg.

BlizzJ <----- an extremely happy camper

 

Yes, YOU are in California, where it is much warmer than where the other poster (and I) are from. The tempature/weather affect the MPG a lot, and we don't get 50MPG or better here, right now. We are lucky to get 43-45MPG at the moment, with the temperature/weather the way it is now. When the tempatures warm up, our mileage will increase.

 

This is definately true. There's a saying I like, "A man with experience is not at the mercy of someone with an opinion". However, like you said it doesn't apply to this thread because the subject we're discussing has several different angles it can be looked at from.

I can agree with this too

 

I concur. Wait a few more years, and skip the 2010 model and possibly get the plug-in mode in 2013.

Post year 2000 cars, in general, can last 10 years w/o repairs if you drive well and have low mileage.

Get rid of the Frontier when repair costs become higher than the resell value. Like a failed transmission, blown piston. Brakes I consider maintenance.

 

Let's see:

65k / 8 years ~= 8,000 miles per year
​

Keep it. At 8,000 miles per year, you're not driving enough to justify replacement with a Prius. The only risk is in about 2 years, your truck will go past the 10 years that manufacturers typically stock spares. You may have to switch to salvage yard spares.

I typically drive:

20,000 miles per year
​

We had a 2001 Echo but it reaches the 10 year parts limit next year. We didn't drive it often but it only got 32 MPG when we did drive it. But I could afford to replace it with a 2010 Prius that gets 52 MPG, a little less when my wife drives it. Regardless, we now have:

125,000 mile - 2003 Prius, my primary commuting vehicle
9,500 miles - 2010 Prius, backup to my primary
​

I think we have at least a decade of no more cars and the 2010 Prius will be paid off pretty soon. In the meanwhile:

2.25 years / 20,500 warranty on the 2010 Prius
​

If you really want a Prius, consider getting a used NHW20 (2004-2009), which should be available at pretty good prices. Keep the truck and park the Prius next to it. When you get up in the morning, take the vehicle that meets your goals and have a happy.

WARNING: Prius people tend to forget the cost of travel so we tend to happily drive more. ... We know we can have dinner and gas to get back home. <grins>

Bob Wilson

 

To quote from one my slightly OT previous posts (which I've slightly stolen from someone else on Tivocommunity):

Oil prices are currently at ~$80/barrel. The US imports about 11-12 million barrels of oil/day. Assuming the $80/barrel price and 11 million barrels/day, that's >$6 billion a week that's going to other countries.