LA Times: Toyota's Fix is a Bust...

I doubt the prius will be of the 7 models to get the brake override system at the end of the year.....anybody know?

 

From the article: "The reports were first noted by Safety Research & Strategies, a vehicle safety consulting firm in Rehoboth, Mass."

SRS again. Anyone noticing a pattern here?

 

Given that toyota has admitted it could not attribute the cause in 70% of the unintended accelleration reports to the nhtsa to cts pedals or floor mats, it should come as no suprise that the "fix" does not work in all cases.

Before you blame driver error in all these cases as some toyota appologists would have you do, consider that crash incidents reported as caused by unintended acceleration are statistically at a much higher level than other makes. That means that for it to be driver error either A) toyota drivers must be worse than other drivers and/or B) toyota drivers report at a much higher rate. There is strong evidence that A is wrong, and no evidence that B is correct.

From the second article

"But even with another round of apologies from company executives, Shinichi Sasaki, Toyota Motor Corp.'s executive vice president in charge of quality assurance and customer service, suggested that sudden acceleration was caused by driver error, such as improperly placed floor mats.

"We need to do more to consider customer expectations and real-world usage of our vehicles, even irregular use," he said. "We need to reduce the number of things we ask our customers to do correctly.""

It does take a little from the apology, when a vp says I'm sorry our drivers are idiots. This is especially callous when most of the driver reports of accidents have the floor mats installed by the dealers. This is something that is not driver error but dealer negligence. Given the reports, maybe he should appologize for toyota not doing things correctly, not misunderstanding that customers !
remove their foot from the accellerator and expect the car to stop accelerating, or hit the brake and expect the car to stop.

 

not sure about the gen3 prius but my gen 2 prius already got the override people talking about. AS standard.

 

A press release from SRS and/or the attorneys they are working for, with a request for comment. Plus a lot of fluff. Why newspapers are dying but too slowly.

 

Prius already has that feature

 

This is exactly the publicity Toyota doesn't want.

That being said the truth in matters like this has to be discovered, defined and faced.

Keep in mind though that these are alleged "reports" and they do need to be investigated. It doesn't suprise me at all that you would get these allegations. You've had nothing for weeks in the media but reports about "unintended acceleration" followed by allegations that Toyota's "fix" wasn't going to work and attacks against their software and electronics.

I'm not a Toyota apologist, I want the truth and in cases like this it must be adressed. But I am suspicious of any claim right now. People have very much had it pounded into their heads the past month that their Toyota was dangerous, that the brake fix wouldn't work...so if anyone makes a mistake, or thinks they notice anything outside the norm they are immediately going to connect that with their vehicle failing as a result of the recall.

I still say, even if it is intermittent, hard to reproduce, if it IS a problem with electronics or software eventually it should be traceable to the exact cause. And not the ABC report where circuits are willfully fused together.

At this point investigation is the key.

But unfortunately for Toyota, given the massive media onslaught of inuendo and accusation, I'm very afraid a fertile ground for hysteria has been created.

It hasn't been fair, GM has recalled a large amount of vehicles for defective steering and I don't hear 1/3rd the accusation or coverage. Honda has had problems with their airbags.

Maybe to an extent I am becoming a Toyota apologist, BUT within the media it just seems overly caustic. It's almost daily accusations of failure with nobody but Toyota themselves seemingly advancing the possibilty that the fix works and the cars are as safe as anything else on the road.

Toyota is a huge automaker, and I've always thought they would emerge from these events but if they can't reach a place where they aren't constantly being accused of failure or dangerous product I'm begining to have my doubts. Even if you are producing a safe product, fixing a problem and trying your best, if you get daily/weekly news reports filled with accusations of sub-standard safety and vehicles accelerating out of control how are you suppose to rebound?

I'm just really to the point where I wish the media would lay off. Every time someone get's into any trouble now with a Toyota vehicle the specter of "Electronic or Software" failure is going to be raised. The seed has been planted.

Test it, prove it.

With all due respect to reporting owners, accidents happen with all automobiles, all the time. Driving is connected with "skills" and "risk".

You'll have to excuse me if I'm just a little suspicious of any media article featuring another fear inducing headline, along with a unflattering photo of either a wreck or a mechanic looking confused at a piece of metal.

 

It would seem that Toyota is not up to the task of definitively finding out what is causing the instances of sudden acceleration. It can continue to try to treat sudden acceleration as a PR matter and stone-wall. Or, it can hire people who do the investigative thing for a living. Either way, it will be expensive for Toyota. But the expense of product liability comes with the territory.

This little experience is far from being over.

 

"It would seem Toyota is not up to the task of definitively finding out what is causing the instances of sudden acceleration"

Why would you say that? They evidently did exhaustive inhouse testing of their own electronics, software and throttle system. They also had an independent outside company do testing. They are repeating the process now, in light of the never ending media feeding frenzy. Could you at least harbor the idea that the reason they can't find a problem outside of those they have admitted to, is because it doesn't exist? Neither Toyota nor the seeming never ending flood of accusers seem to be able to find out what is causing instances of sudden acceleration. All you hear is accusation and the isolated individual owner that either has a problem or imagines they have a problem.

"It (Toyota) can continue to try to treat sudden acceleration as a PR and stone wall. Or it can hire people that do the investigative thing for a living"

What's the reality? Toyota voluntarily launched a historic series of recalls to tangibly deal with the problem. Mechanics across North America are fixing cars 24/7. If you want to believe that is simply handling it as a PR issue? I can't help you. But IMO Toyota is dealing with the "Problem" and what has been forced on them as a PR issue. At this point it is both. But to say Toyota is only handling it as a PR issue is to ignore the reality of the massive effort Toyota has launched. ....as far as hiring people who "do the investigating thing for a living"...I'm sure Toyota has those people on the payroll.

Yes, product liabilty is a risk of automanufacturing. Toyota doesn't get a pass on this issue. But until we have more than speculation and accusation as to a problem then why should Toyota be liable for any more expense than they have already incurred by launching a massive recall, temporarily shutting down production, and the ensuing fall out from the negative publicity?

Don't hear the same negative commentary about GM with a huge recall due to defective steering, nor do I hear the same accusations leveled at Honda for a problem with airbags.

 

I don't think any corporation is up to the task of definitively finding out what is causing problems in hard-to-reproduce scenarios that affect a relative handful out of millions.

It's a discussion I've tried to start a couple times throughout this debacle. Where do we draw the line? We cannot realistically expect any corporation to manufacture millions of products that will all work flawlessly in varying environmental conditions for 5+ years.

Now I am not saying that Toyota isn't to blame for their problems, they certainly are and they certainly could have reacted differently earlier in the decade. But that doesn't change the basic reality of the incidence rate and reproducibility. Every account indicates that this is problem affects a statistically small amount of vehicles, and then within that small subset, it only happens on rare occasions that cannot be easily recreated. Exactly how are you supposed to diagnose and fix a problem under those conditions?

I see far too many people expecting Toyota to do the impossible, and then being disappointed or angry when they can't do it.

 

So what are the accidents? Operator error?

But they don't seem to be up to the task in front of them. Especially with what may be new instances of sudden acceleration in cars that have had the recall....

Who is going to do the definitive investigation to determine what is causing sudden acceleration? The cars were made by Toyota. If sudden acceleration is indeed occurring on cars that have had the recall, it would seem that the recall in not a definitive fix, so Toyota retains the liability.

I don't own a GM or Honda. I do however, own a Toyota that arguably has a problem with brake drop out that seems to be getting the middle-fingered wave from Toyota. So I am posting.

 

Toyota manufactured the cars and sold them to the consumers as being safe (fit for intended purpose warranty). It is not the consumer's fault (unless it can be definitively proven that operator error is the root cause of the acceleration problem) the cars suddenly accelerate. Toyota has a product liability issue and it is their obligation to find what is causing the problem and to fix it so that it doesn't occur after the repair has been made. Whether the problem only occurs in a small subset of vehicles is not material. The problem occurs under certain conditions and must be made to not occur. If Toyota has swept the problems under the rug, it has a whole other set of issues, which is why there is a present criminal investigation occurring.

 

EDIT: A true brake-throttle override would probably be a reasonable stop-gap until the root cause of sudden acceleration could be determined and a real fix developed. The problem with how Toyota appears to have implemented the brake-throttle override in the Camry, is that it doesn't cut in until something like 30 mph and a certain rpm (3,000?) threshold is reached. You may or may not recall from the Audi sudden acceleration issue, but there was one instance where a woman had called 911 and was hysterical about her young (8 years old?; I don't recall the exact age) having just been crushed by their Audi 5000. The speed the car attained was something like 10 mph.... The tape of the call was damning. A car can be lethal at any speed. The brake-throttle override must work the moment the brake is pressed.

But it is arguably an example of 'media piling onto' poor Toyota.

 

I wasn't aware there was any consistency beyond the drivers have mostly been older like me. Maybe the brake override will work. Hopefully. But I deplore the progress toward cars as an "idiot-proof" product. I suppose we could also require that our automatic transmissions work the way my rented Rover in the UK did: you take your foot off the gas pedal, the car downshifts and stops. Other than almost getting rear-ended and a couple of finger salutes it was effective.

It's been a long time since I did it, but am I the only person in America who has put his foot on the accelerator instead of the brake pedal and vice versa? And if I were talking on the cell phone and/or texting, or dealing with my screaming kids, or having an argument with my spouse, etc might it happen more easily?

 

And how many do you think would admit that they screwed up? How many posters on here screaming this and that happens fall into that catagory?

 

It doesn't take an idiot to put a floor mat in a car that isn't secure, and have it creep up and interfere with the pedals. It has happened to everybody at some time or another. It probably has caused accidents, though usually drivers are successful in pushing the mat down with their feet, or adjust it before driving.

I wonder if there is now a law about secure driver side floor mats. There should be.
That may be the problem.

 

obviously, it is same company that is hired by 5 lawyers suing toyota

and they gave this info to LA times, who did not disclose the fact... nothing new i guess.