Dumped the 07 Prius after 5 weeks

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HiLaker @ Jun 14 2007, 05:32 PM) [snapback]461867[/snapback]</div>

Your misinformed knowledge is about 3 years old. I suggest you refresh that up. I highly doubt that you own a Prius. Show us the proof!

If Toyota is able to green wash the world with Prius, give Prius the credit it deserves! It is truly a revolutionary car. HSD is the core technology for all future Toyota.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HiLaker @ Jun 14 2007, 05:32 PM) [snapback]461867[/snapback]</div>

Since 04 Prius, there has been Highlander Hybrid, RX400h, Camry Hybrid, GS400h, LS450h and Estima hybrid (in Japan) using HSD. All of those were rolled out in 3 years. If that is not immediately enough, what is? Do you expect everything with HSD over night?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HiLaker @ Jun 14 2007, 05:32 PM) [snapback]461867[/snapback]</div>

The Mini is smaller and slower than Prius. If you own a Prius, you gotta know this man! I'll be glad to see supercaps-based hybrid from BMW. So far I have only heard about the very mild (start-stop) hybrid from BMW.

Oversized battery? Do you know the size and weight of Prius HV battery?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ Jun 15 2007, 10:01 AM) [snapback]462290[/snapback]</div>

Maybe price is the chief concern if you don't have any money!.... :lol:
but for most of the working world that have been working long enough to be above minumum wage, they want "something" for thier money and are willing to buy it to keep from having to "re-buy over and over" because thier crap products keep breaking and falling apart.
There is far too much bottom of the barrel crap out there in all markets to appeal to those who are only concerned with price......

Its true there is a market out there to whom price is the "only " chief concern but boy do they pay dearly for being that way!

From computer electronics, to cars, rarely do you even get your moneys worth "even though its cheaper" when you buy the cheapest.

I can't see that anyone with that mentality would even be in the market for a prius... and if they did somehow get one "as a gift", they would certainly be uptight and the price of any mods they may consider for it.

The Prius is not the best choice for those on a limited budget, nor are the cool mods available for it.
The prius is for those who "choose" to pay for the amenities and benifits it brings and it takes many years and lots of driving to ever realize a monitary profit from the purchase.

I somehow doubt those who feel the cheapest is best still watch a black and white TV and a monochrome computer monitor because they are cheap...

Its all a matter of priorites and sacrifice.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ Jun 15 2007, 10:01 AM) [snapback]462290[/snapback]</div>

Sorry, you're right. Price is not top of the list. FUEL ECONOMY is, then reliability and price. Performance didn't even rank in the top four. Consumer Reports Article

My point was not that no one wants performance, but that these factors are not static, they are changing over time, and you will see more and more people searching for fuel economy, as the Consumer Reports survey suggests.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Jun 15 2007, 02:02 PM) [snapback]462430[/snapback]</div>

You also have to remember that there is an inevitable discrepancy between the responses to such a survey and the actual buying habits of the general public. People answer survey questions based on how they perceive their own attitudes and by thinking about the appropriate answers. On the other hand, when they go out to look for a car, they end up buying much more by instinct and impulse - those are the levers salesmen are trained to pull!

Put another way, if you ask someone their priority if they were buying a new car, most will quickly reflect on the price of fuel the last time they filled up or passed their local station, and be conscious of that issue. Additionally, who wouldn't want to conserve their money as best as possible when asked, even obliquely, if doing so would be important to them? Put that same person on a car lot and they'll be attracted by all the things the dealership know really sells cars, and which in many instances actually work AGAINST the buyer's rational judgement.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(usbseawolf2000 @ Jun 15 2007, 05:57 PM) [snapback]462350[/snapback]</div>

My proof of ownersihp is the fact that when I have to change headlight bulb 2 years ago I had to remove front bumper! (official Toyota's procedure). Workaround is to find mechanic with monkey hands. Japanese design!

BTW: Toyota's hi-discharge lights you use in US are not allowed in Europe.

Toyota's HSD solution is very expensive cost wise and sub-optimal from engineering point of view.
Japanese are traditionally good at perfecting processes and designs made by others, their multi-billion dollar bet on HSD will not work as planned IMHO. De-facto next-gen car standard dream is evaporating day by day. More hybrids they produce per quarter - lower their quarterly earnings. This is not sustainable.

At the same time competition (BMW, GM, DB) agreed to share superior technology (to lower cost) that is much more elegant, driver friendly and actually cleaner then Toyota's because it will be applied across entire fleet (instead of 1% share of hybrids in Toyota's production) without damaging profitability or increasing prices for consumers.

After initial hype demand for Prius fell off the cliff here in Switzerland as new generation clean diesels storming 60% of new car sales. Plenty of Priuses at list prices available on stock see here

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HiLaker @ Jun 15 2007, 02:55 PM) [snapback]462473[/snapback]</div>

Oh dear, another economy-wash load of nonsensical idiocy.

Well, here goes: While it may well be that parts have to be removed to replace a lightbulb, it is commonplace on all vehicles to find these 'design' issues. This is hardly the first time such a thing has happened, and indeed, in some cases manufacturers have had to come up with a bag full of special tools for even basic maintenance. It's not so long ago, for example, that a particular european car had to have the suspension on a front wheel dismantled to gain access to the alternator. That was a popular vehicle if memory serves.

As to the 'HSD solution being very expensive cost wise...' that's really a matter of opinion and needs to be taken in context. It seems likely to be no more proportionately expensive than the drive train and subsidiary components on any other car at the same general price point, else Toyota couldn't sell it at the price it does. It also matters very little what it's real cost is, except to Toyota who has to cost it in order to determine what the car needs to be sold for. Prius owners only need to take an interest if their HSD needs replacing - which actually seems pretty rare.

It must also be said that spreading mythology doesn't actually make what is being said any more truthful, accurate or plausible. Just repeated more.

"...and sub-optimal from engineering point of view." Well, that rather depends on what you're comparing it to. Compared to the drive trains in vehicles that cover half as many miles per gallon, blow blue smoke at the merest hint of exertion (Chrysler, are you listening) or pump noxious gasses up the noses and down the throats of innocent victims who just happen to be in the vicinity as they are driven by, the engineering is a rather advanced and well designed technological achievement. In the event that you don't agree, I'd suggest you read about it and read what experts have said about it. I'd take their word for it over yours if I had doubts myself.

Interesting that you think the Japanese are merely following along on the coat-tails of other's developments - which hardly explains why they were first to market with this kind of product, why they lead the market with it, and why the Prius, as is, gets what, more than twice the fuel efficiency of the rather poor-grade hybrids made by US manufacturers. If your humble opinion counts for much at all, you might give it some facts to chew on first before you engage your 3-speed hyperdrive perhaps.

It also seems to me that your economics skills need a bit of a refresher course, because it's hard to equate an increasing production and sales volume with decreasing earnings. You must be a car salesman to be able to make those diametrically opposed notions stick together, but it doesn't really make sense once you put aside the bluster.

It may well be that higher and escalating fuel costs are driving more and more manufacturers to develop improved fuel efficiency in their production vehicles - good. About time. Shame they didn't think to do it when customers wanted them in europe originally, and instead left much of the market to far-eastern manufacturers to fill with quirky but effective drive trains and light 'town' vehicles. Still, now they see the potential market and get going on development, the competition for customers who demand increasing fuel economy can only be good for us all.

Of course, in the event you have applied your skills and expertise to development of fuel efficient and ecologically sensible transportation technologies, you have earned the right to be critical of the work done by others. Otherwise, I think you have very little of validity to say on the subject.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(ZA_Andy @ Jun 15 2007, 09:21 PM) [snapback]462493[/snapback]</div>

Oh dear, Toyota's PR is so effective. 25th frame effect perharps?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Jun 15 2007, 02:02 PM) [snapback]462430[/snapback]</div>

Consumer Reports surveys its MEMBERS. Consumer Reports members tend to be a certain type of person, thrifty is not even thrifty enough to describe them. Always take CR with a grain of salt.

Believe me when I tell you, I've read articles in automotive business journals that look at buyer trends and decision making factorys, performance in a bigger motivator that economy on a whole. Economy is far more important than ever before, but buyers have shown that they're only willing to sacrifice so much performance for economy.

As to "HiLaker", I won't even comment, he/she ignored my request for a source for her statement "the Prius line is not profitable". She's not worth arguing with because she's making it up as she goes along.

I know she'll have so source since that statement is completely false, I've seen the profit reports myself.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ Jun 15 2007, 03:03 PM) [snapback]462515[/snapback]</div>

Where does it say they surveyed their members?

I agree with you on HiLaker's comments (he sounds more and more like he's quoting directly from prius-bashing articles), but I'd appreciate a current source for YOUR assertion that performance is the number one thing consumers look for.

 

Same survey, more info...http://money.cnn.com/2007/05/24/autos/cr_m...urvey/index.htm

 

:blink:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Jun 16 2007, 05:23 AM) [snapback]462817[/snapback]</div>

There are different horses suitable for different courses and different temperament of the rider.
Your idea about generic consumer is funny

Like for like: boring attracts boring, mediocre people herd together, underperfoming hate performance, ugly distaste beauty ... <_< Continue this line (and expose your real colors).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HiLaker @ Jun 12 2007, 01:06 PM) [snapback]460361[/snapback]</div>

I smell a troll here spewing a bunch of FUD. Your posts are full of nonsense.

What's this "too much reliance on electronics" all about? What difference does that make? Who's to judge that it's "too much"? You do realize that even if a car doesn't look like it has any sophisticated electronics, it likely has some anyways. All cars sold in the US after 1/1/96 have to have OBD-II compliant (http://www.obdii.com/connector.html). Many cars use CAN (Controller Area Network) http://www.canobd2.com/knowledge/what_is_can.asp http://www.aa1car.com/library/can_systems.htm. The Prius definitely uses it as does my 350Z (it's referenced many times in the service manual).

As for drivetrain innovation... hmm, the Prius has a very innovative CVT and no starter and no alternator. Which do you think is more complex from http://priuschat.com/index.php?act=ST&f=19&t=30245, the CVT/Power Split Device in the Prius or a 6 speed FWD automatic transmission?

Name a mass market, currently available vehicle that is in the same price range as a Prius, the same size or larger, that is MORE innovative (think HSD, CVT/PSD and other non-drivetrain innovations like the MFD and Smartkey system), that gets the same or better fuel economy, has the same or lower emissions and has the same or better reliability.

Where are the hybrids from BMW, Mercedes, and Chrysler? The Prius has been selling since 1997. Where are the actual emissions #s showing that the 1 Series and Mini that you cite having lower emissions all across the board than the Prius? Look who's paying fines in the US for not meeting US CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) standards? http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/CAFE/F...ED-SUMMARY.html

Look where GM and DaimlerChrysler rank right now at http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/vehic...kings-2007.html.

 

man, we've definitely been trolled. Never have a battle of wits with an unarmed man.......
:lol: :lol:

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Jun 15 2007, 11:23 PM) [snapback]462817[/snapback]</div>

Because Consumer Reports ALWAYS polls their members. I'd try and find out if those 1800 people were CR members or not, the article didn't say.

As for my sources. Unfortunately they come from hard bound automotive journals that aren't available online so they're difficult to quote. Anyways I never said that performance was the number one buying factor, I just said that buyers were only willing to give up so much performance for economy. The buying factors change depending on what type of vehicle you're talking about. The point is that for most buyers, economy is not the be all and end all like it is for much of you.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HiLaker @ Jun 16 2007, 04:58 AM) [snapback]462913[/snapback]</div>

This person's a troll guys, I'm going to flag her to the mods. Stop interacting with her.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(SW03ES @ Jun 13 2007, 01:20 PM) [snapback]460966[/snapback]</div>

I didn't have Nav in Prius. Mine was package #7.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(HiLaker @ Jun 14 2007, 05:32 PM) [snapback]461867[/snapback]</div>

I no longer own Prius, but this is complete BS, sorry. First of all, look around: everyone is doing hybrids. Even BMW: 2008 E60 already uses regenerative braking. 2010 models (F10) will supposedly have hybrid diesel engines. So much for the dead end technology.

Now, please check carefully emissions. BMW 1 is still producing 30% more CO2 than Prius and 1-series is a way smaller car. Prius provides almost same interior space as Camry. Fair comparo would be to 3 series at least. Besides, even aggressively driven Prius makes about 35 mpg. Aggressively driven 3 series makes 20mpg at best with a stick.

Are you trying to justify your choice?

 

I notice that cross winds have a tendency to kick my car around alot so I have to stay on it more than any of my other small cars. Since I love everything else about this car I'll just work with it

 

There is a solution to the cross wind issue. The solution consists of installing front and rear suspension braces and wider tires. With the solution installed, the car is indifferent to cross winds.

 

Wow, thread resurrection a little bit?