calculation details of Volt's 230mpg city estimate

Unless the car has a simple circuit that shuts it down when the battery gets low, before it gets low enough to damage the battery. Granted, my Xebra does not have that, so I have to watch my gauges. I'm not sure, but I think the Tesla does have it, so you may run out of juice, but you don't damage the battery. And the Nissan Leaf will have such a circuit.

So damaging the battery is not an issue. The Leaf will also have a read-out showing approximately how many miles you have remaining. Since the car cannot anticipate driving style or terrain, this will be less accurate when full, but as you approach empty it will be more accurate. And the Leaf's built-in NAV will show a circle around your present location, showing your remaining range, and the location of charging stations if you are in an area where Nissan is building them.

Now, if someone is careless enough to run out of juice, AAA will not have charging trucks, so you'll have to be towed. A big nuisance, but not the end of the world. For three years I've managed quite well with a 40-mile top range. If I have to go farther than about 30 miles, I take the stinker. I figure I'll have no trouble at all with the 100-mile Leaf. But I have my cell phone and there are tow trucks. Much more likely I'd need to call a wrecker on account of a flat tire than on account of running out of juice.

So why would I want a 30-mile EV with a dead-weight engine when I can have a 100-mile pure EV, and drive the stinker when I have to go farther than 100 miles?

The bigger problem will be remembering to drive the Prius once a month to keep everything clean and running.

 

Even running the battery down to cut off does diminishes battery life and quality. Nissan does have plans/dreams of having AAA have a charging truck . Again how many people run out of gas? you or I may be smart enough to watch the gauges and know it's time for a refill/charge, but there are people that are going to push it and that's never good for a battery. You have a continual flash and a chime to tell people that they are running out of gas and they continue to drive.

Waiting for a tow can take hours and then paying for the tow (unless you have AAA). That's a lot of headache that many people don't want to worry about. Again every car isn't for everyone, I pick a Tesla over a volt and I know the limitations. Cold weather diminishes capacity so I would need the 220 mile or 300 mile model s. So even with diminished capacity I could make my trips with one stop. My sister has a nice piece of property in stratford CT, that could easily be turned into a charging stop for me.

I like the Leaf, but I want to have only one car (for me at least) then my trips would be lengthened by 1 1/2 hrs. Tesla and Nissan are really going for an EV future and I respect that. The volt, not so much and the prius even less so. Every car will have a market. even if that market is a fear based one!

 

Maybe not! The man at Nissan (Leaf customer service line, not a local dealer) told me that the Leaf's lithium-magnesium battery will have a calendar life of ten years, regardless of number of charge cycles or depth of discharge, within what the car's computer will allow. (I.e. if you manage to override the computer, all bets are off.)

Remember that different battery chemistries have different properties, and what applies to one may not apply to another. For example, a lead battery wants to be kept always at 100% SoC, whereas NiMH wants never to be at 100%; and sulfation does not affect any batteries other than lead.

The price of stupidity! People who run out of gas or juice, it's their own fault if they have to wait a long time for a wrecker to arrive.

BTW, AAA with its reactionary, anti-environmentalist politics is not the only way to get road service insurance. I pay a few bucks a year (much less than AAA membership costs) to have road service coverage as a line item on my car insurance.

Why? I find the two-car solution to be ideal: EV for in-town, and stinker for those long road trips to Canada.

 

Well, you might want a 30 mile EV with a dead-weight engine because by your own admission you would use gas only once a month. You would only need one car instead of two.

GM will be offering one with a 40 mile EV range, but since its a GM I am sure you will not be interested.

 

This doesn't apply to me, but here are some arguments people could make for having only one car:

1) Only one car payment (maybe cheaper than two cars, depending on selection). Definitely less hassle.
2) Only have to insure one car = lower rates (possibly).
3) Less maintenance. Might be cheaper overall. If you do your own work, you only have to learn one car.
4) Less cleaning.
5) Easier and perhaps cheaper parking. Some apartment complexes only allot one parking space per apartment.
6) Less depreciation (possibly).

 

Very true, but that sounds like pr spin. Why would nissan in one breathe state that they have computer systems to keep the battery at ideal, then next say that it doesn't matter the level of discharge will last 10 years. I do believe that tesla and nissan's approach to battery management are very good, but putting excessive stress on a Lithium based battery is not good.

Why have two insurance premiums?
Why have to maintain two cars? (the prius is getting up there in miles/age so it looks like replacement time in the next year or two)
Why have to worry about where to park the second car? If the second car is for my fiance, then that's his not mine.

If something happens that requires me to go to boston suddenly and he is away(with the other car). where does that leave me? With a car that can't make it or adds 1 1/2hrs to my trip?

I'd rather have one car that fits most if not all of my needs than have a car that only fits half of my needs. I don't like hoping from car to car, because things get left behind. If my work gets left behind that would cost me business and I don't like loosing money .

Its a simple difference of lifestyle. Some people won't mind using to cars, i just see it as an inconvenience. I like EVs and the next car will be EV.

 

If GM offered the best car, I'd buy it. BUT:

When I do have to burn gas, I'd rather get 50 mpg (my actual long-trip highway mpg in the 2004 Prius) than 25 mpg (which I expect in CS mode in the Volt) AND the Prius is bigger.

And I don't believe the 40-mile range for the Volt any more than I believe it will get 230 mpg.

And the Leaf will have triple the EV range and cost less.

1. I aready have the Prius and the Leaf will be cheaper than the Volt.
2. Possibly a valid point.
3. The Volt will have all the maintenance of a gas car, while the Leaf, being pure EV, wil have virtually no maintenance.
4. Only matters if you clean your cars. I figure, it will get dirty again anyway, so what's the point?
5. Good point, though not an issue for me.
6. Remains to be seen, but it depends on the quality of the car, and the demand for it used. I expect very little demand for the Volt new, due to its excessive price, and therefore large depreciation.

Because the ten-year calendar life assumes the battery is not discharged below a certain level.

I'd rather minimize the amount of gas I burn, and that means having a pure EV for most of my driving, and the most efficient car when I must burn gas.

Agreed: different lifestyles. I doubt that many people will be willing to pay $40,000 in order to have just one car with a short EV range and mediocre FE after that. People who care enough about gas usage, and are willing to pay that much money to save a relatively small amount of gas, are likely to buy a pure EV with a longer range instead.

The longer range of the Leaf means more of your driving will be electric. And $40,000 is a LOT to pay for a 30-mile range.

I just think the Volt costs too much to be a commuter car, and has too short an EV range for a serious EV enthusiast. Where does that leave it as far as a target buyer? I believe the Volt was designed to fail because GM wants to appear to be "doing something" but does not want to actually stem gasoline usage.

 

In many ways I agree with you, I am just more optimistic. I think 25mpg for CS mode is out of the question. 38mpg is the low mark, for a test vehicle that may have not been ready. If its 38mpg I would be disappointed but most of my driving would be electric and the difference would be small.

If you drive a 38 mpg car ONCE A MONTH and a 50 mpg car the same amount the gas usage is not going to be that different compared to the savings of going all electric for the other 29 days of the month.

I am going to lay it down..... I am betting 45mpg in CS mode and will express my official disappointment if CS mode is less then 40mpg. Dissapointment as in.... GM F*cked up the Volt.

 

but 30k is a good price for a commuter car plus the cost of another car? how does that make sense from a price stand point if 40k is too much? Sure a serious enthusiasts will buy a leaf, but the general public are far from EV enthusiasts. The gen. public are afraid of running out of juice. its mentioned in every article and it's the top concern in surveys. so that's the volt's market.

I agree with you on the EV front. I want as many EV miles as possible, but some people can't make the compromise or afraid to. The volt is that half-step. where a person can have a decent EV and still have a decent MPG. I can full commit to EV as long as it's range is 200+ miles. Tesla Is the only car co that can pull that off. So I will wait until that comes out. But what's right for me isn't what's right for everyone else and visa versa. So I can see the volt selling, not as well as the leaf or prius, but it will sell none the less.

 

I may drive my stinker once a month to keep it clean and running. But I drive to Canada and back several times during the summer, and might drive to Seattle on rare occasions. Those long drives would kill any advantage the Volt would otherwise have.

Because at 100 miles the Leaf is more than a commuter car. It is all the car you need unless you take road trips. And since most families take their road trips together, and own two cars already, if one of them is a 100-mile EV it has sufficient range for EVERYTHING except the family road trip, which their other car does.

Some people let fear rule their lives, and as a result they only half live. Or worse yet, their fears lead them to make irrational decisions, such as when fear of airplane hijackings leads people to choose instead the much more dangerous private car for their transportation.

Fear of running out of juice (or gas) is in effect saying, "I'm too stupid to plug in (or fill up) and so maybe I'll run out."

Very few people drive more than 100 miles a day, and it makes more sense to save the $10,000 (assumed difference between Volt and Leaf) and have the superior and cheaper car, and if once a year you and your spouse both need long-range cars, rent one. It's like people who drive a gas-guzzling pickup truck every day because once a year they need to haul something, or people who drive a monstrous SUV because once a year they might want to tow something. It makes more sense to rent a vehicle if you only need it once in a blue moon. I have friends who don't own a car: They've arranged their lives around bicycle transportation. Two or three times a year they have a visit from out of town family or friend, and then they rent a car for the few days of the visit. The same can apply to owning a car you only really need once or twice a year: it makes more sense to rent.

I think a lot of people are going to make the progression I did: I bought a hybrid because it is cool, and it's cleaner, and it burns less gas. Then I fell in love with those times when it shuts off the ICE and goes electric. I wanted more electric time. Then I thought it would be great if it had a 15-mile EV range and could be plugged in. (At this stage I'd have bought a Volt had it been available. I thought the Volt concept was the way to go.) But then I realized how much simpler a pure EV is, and how wasteful it is to try to combine the two, and that's when I decided an EV is what I wanted. So I bought my Xebra, and in spite of all its shortcomings (and they are many) it's still the best car, overall, I've ever owned, and the most fun. The Leaf will clearly be a big step up. The Volt, with its gasoline engine, would be a step backwards.

 

The Leaf is a commuter car plan and simple. Why not add 10k and the volt could be the car that does EVERYTHING they need. I can't make it from nyc to Philadelphia. That range is insufficient for me. Needs will be different will be for different people.

Yes people let fear run their lives. it's not going to change just because you or I don't have that fear or have enough sense. There is a reason that cars are filled with idiot signals for gas, oil and temp. if you check you oil regularly like they are supposed to, then there would be no need for that light. But alot of people don't. They end up messing up their cars. All there would need to be is one high profile person to run out of juice in an EV and it would mar the public perception of EV's. Once there are just as many charging stations as ther are gas stations then this point will be moot, but until then, it is a real concern.

I remember top gear pulling some bs with the tesla roadster saying it ran out of power and they had to push it back to the garage. When clearly on video you could see the info screen and it said it had 20 miles left! top gear ended up fessing up, but stunts like that hurt the EV cause and make people afraid. Ask your non enthusaist friends about EVs I bet they will all say they have range anxiety.

Going from a non-hybrid to a hybrid has a lot less compromises than going from an ICE to an EV. When I bought my prius, I didn't change my driving habits, worry about how far I am from home or how many more miles I had to go. I just drove. With a 100 mile range EV I will have to worry about how far I am from the next charging station, How far I have to go, do I have my heater on and the list goes on. I can deal with some compromises, but many other people will not want to make that choice. The volt is compromised because it is a compromise. A way for people that are afraid of ev to have an ev car but still have the security of "if I run out of juice I have a back up (ICE)".

 

Because trying to make the car do both things, it does neither well.

I predict that those people don't want to have an EV, and those few that might be interested will not want to pay that much for it. It's a car designed to fail because there's too small a market for a $40,000 car that's sort of an EV but has all the drawbacks of a gasoline car.

 

And that car will appeal to some people. I already stated that the volt doesn't excel in any area, but where it excels at is that it can function as anything that someone needs. it might not be enough for pure ev enthusiast.

I respect your opinion, but I guess we have to agree to disagree .

 

Probably about 25 people.

Likewise.

Happens all the time. :thumb:

 

Even if the Volt misses the CS mark of 45mpg and the range of 40 miles they will sell thousands. It will be a sell out for the first year (12 months) run of 10,000. The only thing that would make it not sell 10,000 would be a price before government rebate over $45,000.

I am interested personally at CS of 45mpg, range of 35 miles and $39,999 (-$7500 tax credit) = $32,500

I am interested in the Leaf at $35,000 ( - $7500 tax credit = $27500) including batteries.

 

Daniel, as much as I share your dislike and distrust of GM, I think it will be more than 25 people.

No question, that for a 2 car family, a EV plus a hybrid or very high mpg stinker, is a good combo that covers all the bases. But for a one car family or single that sometimes travels more than 40 miles, either a Volt or a hybrid is a better choice. If five days a week I drove under 40 miles and every weekend I drove 200 miles, the Volt might be better because I would be all EV for 5 days. Everyones requirements are different! YMMV

The other market for the Volt that we could be overlooking and could be huge is all the people that can not buy a Prius because it is made in Japan. When an AMERICAN auto maker comes out with "better" (or just different) technology, a lot of people driving big cars, trucks and SUVs, might make the switch. Just imagine if an one of the big three had come out with a hybrid right after 9/11. They could have wrapped the flag around it and sold a million cars a month. Toyota would not be the leader in the hybrid world.

Whether the Volt works for me or not, i wish GM luck, not only as a stockholder (taxpayer) but also because it is a step toward moving our transportation system away from petro.

 

Hopefully (if they DO even build a couple thousand of 'em this year) the next batch in 2011 will have an ICE switch for just such occasions. Kind of an irony thinking about that.

.

 

I doubt it will. It is an electric car! The "range extender" does not activate when the battery charge is full! Never! That would defeat the whole point of being an electric car! This is suppose to be better than a hybrid (Prius)!

In a serious note, I think Lutz's pride will be taken away if the ICE is allowed to assist the Volt's PHV battery.

 

The only reason for an ICE switch would be performance. There is no need to 'save' battery capacity as all you are doing is using gas up front that you might not need otherwise.

Sure a hill sucks down the electricity, but it would also suck down an equivalent amount of gas and the whole point of this car would be to save the gas.

If GM designs the Volt so that the electric motor can handle the full power of the ICE and the battery together then using both at once could increase performance (enhanced sport mode). I doubt they have designed it that way and don't think it would be worth the extra cost it would incur.

 

If it burns gas it's a stinker. A hybrid is just a stinker that stinks a wee bit less.

Let's say you drive 30 miles on electric 5 days a week and one of those days you drive a bit farther for 10 miles on gas, and you drive 200 miles on the weekend. That's 180 EV miles and 180 gasoline miles. If the Volt gets 25 mpg, you will burn as much gas as a Prius, plus 60 kWh of electricity, but you will have paid $15,000 more for a smaller car.

Nobody is going to make the switch from an SUV to a 4-seat Volt. Not after a decade of GM's hard-sell lies about the supposed "safety" of enormous vehicles.