Just the opposite of a runaway Prius, my 2002 no longer starts!

Discussion in 'Generation 1 Prius Discussion' started by clatsop, Mar 18, 2010.

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  1. clatsop

    clatsop New Member

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    This is my first priuschat posting. We purchased our 2002 Prius new eight years ago. It has been plagued with the infamous P3191 code from the start (before 60 miles on the odometer) and has been through both the control module and fuel tank replacements and is now out of warranty without a satisfactory solution to the problem. One of the P3191 incidents was a total loss of power while driving.

    The symptoms changed this past weekend as the Prius would not move after stopping for a stoplight. Turning the switch off and trying to restart did not work. The DTC codes were P3191 (yet again) plus P3125 (new). During the DTC clearing and restart attempts, the display panel dimmed requiring recharging of the auxiliary 12v battery which runs the electronics. At one point during the problem isolation, the vehicle ran roughly forward and would not go into reverse. The service manager at the dealership said this sounded like the electric motor was running without the gas motor firing.

    A new auxiliary 12v battery has been swapped in. All fuses appear to be good. The graphic on the display shows the hybrid battery down to about 1/4, but don't know if this is below the threshold needed to turn MG1. The throttle body has been cleaned. We do not have a reader capable of reading the sub-codes.

    Current state of the vehicle when trying to start:
    (1) When switched to the "on" position, the display illuminates, but not the "ready" light.
    (2) When switched to the "start" position, the relay back by fuel tank clicks a couple times, a weak tone (pitch approximately C above middle C) is emitted from the center of the engine area for about 15 seconds, and the triangle of death appears on the display.
    (3) DTC P3125 is generated.
    (4) DTC P3191 has not reappeared.

    Specific questions where this forum might be able to help:
    (1) What might cause the "ready" light not to come on?
    (2) Is there a way to check that the engine is receiving fuel (such as externally powering the circuit and pumping a few ounces)?
    (3) Is there a test point to measure the voltage level in the hybrid batteries?
    (4) What is the minimum voltage needed for MG1 to engage?
    (5) Will towing the vehicle in Drive turn the engine enough for the gas engine to start?
    (6) Are there any other problem isolation steps we might take in order to figure out what is wrong?

    Thanks!
     
    #1 clatsop, Mar 18, 2010
  2. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Uh Oh!

    We really need the subcodes:

    • 263 - +B short on DECDC converter
    • 264 - DCDC converter malfunction (these power the 12 DC system)
    • 265 - Open to ground
    • 266 - Pen or GND short to inverter signal
    • 267 - +B short in inverter voltage signal
    • 268 - inverter signal inconsistent with battery voltage
    • . . .
    Options:

    1. Have Toyota service center read out all codes and subcodes. Use them to fault isolate the problem.
    2. Get Autoenginuity's latest scanner and read out all codes and subcodes. Use them to fault isolate the problem.
    3. Monitor the 12 VDC bus when car is started. If you don't see 13.95 VDC, something is broke and broke bad.
    We don't have enough information to do any more detailed diagnosis. But 'low hanging fruit:'

    • Does the inverter pump run when the car is turned "ON"?
    • What is the level of the inverter coolant?
    • Do you have schematics or maintenance manual?
    • Do you have alternate transportation?
    Orange4boy has been doing some tests using a deep-discharge, 12 V battery to substitute for the inverter 12 VDC circuit. This avoids ICE overhead to run the car 12 VDC system. He recharges the deep-discharge battery at night.

    I mention this because it can serve as a 'workaround' to buy time to diagnose and fix the problem.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #2 bwilson4web, Mar 18, 2010
  3. clatsop

    clatsop New Member

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    Bob:

    Thanks for the response.
    Option #1: The Toyota dealership closest to us has the track record of not being able to find the root cause of our past problems, so our confidence level is low on that option. The next nearest dealership is 15+ miles away, and cannot be reached without traversing an Interstate highway.
    Option #2: Sinking $400 into the Autoenginuity ST06 plus EI03 expansion is not in the budget, especially since they don't seem to offer a Linux version of the software.
    Option #3: The 12V system begins at 12.6V, drops slightly and then spikes to about 13.1V when the key is turned to the "start" position, and then drops back to approximately where it began.
    Option #4: Is anyone out there located in the greater Portland, Oregon metro area and willing to loan a code reader which is fancier than my Innova 3110?

    Not sure how to tell if the inverter pump is running, but that could be the sound I hear. Knowing where the pump is mounted would help. If the reservoir
    is to the immediate left of the inverter cover as one faces the engine, then it is at the “full†line. No manual available so far other than a Course 072 document downloaded from the Internet. Suggestions as to what manual to acquire are welcome. Yes on the alternate transportation, but at only 25% of the Prius mileage.

    If I can get the Prius running, an Optima D51R will replace the original (8 year old) auxiliary 12V battery. The “temporary†battery now in place during this problem isolation process is a nearly new deep cycle RV/Marine battery. I have a 2nd RV/Marine battery which I can hook separately into the inverter circuit if needed, provided I know where.
     
    #3 clatsop, Mar 18, 2010
  4. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    It seems to be a mixed bag. Some dealer service departments are excellent and others seem to have 'problems.'
    Understood. The manual diagnostic section consists of DI-271 to DI-309 ... pretty big chunk. Most of it depends upon having the subcodes to indentify the wiring interfaces having the problem.
    I just went out and measured the 12 V battery voltage at:

    • 12.7 V - OFF
    • 12.4 V - ACCESSORY
    • 11.9 V - ON
    • 13.9 V - READY
    I used my cheap meter. So I it looks like the inverter is in trouble.
    I would offer one of my Graham scanners but they don't read out the subcodes. These are the road map to the wiring or equipment errors. It does report three codes. Does the Innova show only one?

    The inverter pump is located on the frame under the inverter. Some have reported seeing the inverter coolant flowing in the resevoir. What can happen is a pump or coolant flow loss can overheat the inverter.

    Check Ebay and possibly Craigs list. I saw some NHW11 manuals listed for auction a couple of days ago. But they tend to be pricy, at least $100 but you may get lucky. Avoid the CD-ROM manuals as they are violating copyright and user reports the copies are pretty crappy too.

    Although it seldom works, reseating the inverter connectors is always an easy and cheap test. The problem is touching just the ones at the inverter is really not enough. The other ends connected to the transaxle and even hybrid vehicle (HV) ECU should be checked too. This almost never works ... except when it does.

    You might consider Oranged4Boy's approach of using deep cycle batteries to provide 12 VDC power for a trip over and back. The subcodes are the road map and even a poor service department should understand you want the codes and subcodes on the report.

    It sounds like your 12 V battery may be OK but absence of charging voltage is a problem.

    A wild card, any evidence of rodent damage? Droppings? We've had reports of rodents nibbling on the wires in obscure, difficult to reach places.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #4 bwilson4web, Mar 19, 2010
  5. jk450

    jk450 New Member

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    That is to be expected when the vehicle powers up, then shuts down on its own.

    Yes, that's the right one. With key turned to the ON position, remove the reservoir cap.

    IMPORTANT: Use a flashlight to look down into the reservoir. Can you clearly see the coolant flowing?
     
    #5 jk450, Mar 19, 2010
  6. clatsop

    clatsop New Member

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    Bob and jk450:
    Thanks to each of you for the suggestions. Can either of you think of something an oil change place might have messed with that would cause this problem? We had an oil change done just three days before the breakdown.

    Bob:
    One of the local parts stores ordered in a Haynes manual for me (which I now have). I printed a P3125 troubleshooting document from Alldata and plan to work through the ones that don't require replacing modules to see if I get lucky. I'll also check those connectors.
    No known rodent problems (our cats seem to keep them away), but I'll watch out for that.
    I found a non-dealership repair outfit less than 20 miles away that has one of the $1500 Toyota intelligent testers (not sure if it is a version II or a III). The owner has a Gen II Prius. Still need to figure out a way to safely get the Prius over there.

    jk450:
    Yes, the inverter coolant is flowing, and in sync with the noise I hear, so the pump is working.
     
    #6 clatsop, Mar 23, 2010
  7. hobbit

    hobbit Senior Member

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    If your undisclosed location is anywhere near boston, I could
    possibly help take a look at it... I've got full-blown AE, albeit
    a slightly older version which is fine for a Classic prius..
    .
    _H*
     
    #7 hobbit, Mar 24, 2010
  8. clatsop

    clatsop New Member

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    Hobbit: I would be close to (the west coast) Boston if Asa Lovejoy had won the 1845 coin toss with Francis Pettygrove, but alas, the nearby city is now named Portland, Oregon. Thanks for the offer, but 3,100 miles is a bit out of easy commute range.
     
    #8 clatsop, Mar 24, 2010
  9. clatsop

    clatsop New Member

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    More problem isolation attempts this past week:

    #1: Disconnected the Aux battery for several days to see if things would reset on their own. This restored the READY light to operating a couple seconds when the key is turned to the Start position. Have to erase the P3125 code between attempts.

    #2: In order to confirm or eliminate the traction battery as part of the problem debugging effort, some friends came over on Saturday and we uncovered and checked the HV battery. Measurements on the individual battery cells began at 7.61V on the connector end, 7.55V (plus or minus 0.02V) throughout the next 30 cells, and about 7.2V at the end of the string. Did a quick load test on individual cells with 12V lights and saw no intensity drops. Total across the pack was 284V. One of the friends built a home brew charger using an old PC power supply (tapping into the intermediate) and we successfully trickle charged the HV battery at 25 milliamps for several hours, bringing the level on the display panel to nearly full.

    The car still will not start, but at least the HV battery does not seem to be the culprit.
     
    #9 clatsop, May 19, 2010
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  10. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Since DTC P3125 is the relevant fault code, the likely suspects include:

    1) the inverter
    2) the transaxle
    3) the wiring harness (unlikely unless your car was in a front-end accident or suffered rodent damage)
    4) hybrid vehicle ECU if your car's serial number fits the range cited in TSB EG021-02, which is serial numbers below JT2BK18U*20067085.


    You can either tow your car 20 miles to obtain the subcode(s) which might help you to decide where the problem is, or you can start replacing parts.

    If this were my car I would be inclined to buy a salvage inverter and try it since your OP says this is a sudden failure. Your OP did not mention driveability issues (such as powertrain noise) that would cause me to think the transaxle was bad.

    The going price for a salvage inverter is ~$400. Maybe that is too much for you to spend without greater assurance that is the problem? Good luck.
    prius inverter items - Get great deals on eBay Motors items on eBay.com!
     
    #10 Patrick Wong, May 19, 2010
  11. andyprius

    andyprius Senior Member

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    Isn't the total DC output around 207V? How did they get 284V? Also is it possible to measure the AC output to the MG's, will the scan guage do this?
     
    #11 andyprius, May 19, 2010
  12. w2co

    w2co Member

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    It's 207 on the GENII pack, on the GEN1 it's 273.6V nominal assuming 7.2V/cell. You mentioned earlier that you could hear a pitch sound from one of the motors up front when trying to start? That could indicate a shorted winding in MG1 or2 for that matter, although it only uses MG1 when starting up. An easy check would be to remove the inverter, then disconnect all six wires to/from the motors, then with all motors open use an ohmmeter and read between all windings and to gnd. Be sure to pull the service plug and disconnect the main battery as well before working in this area, and let the inverter sit for at least 1hour before attempting removal, wear gloves until you read no voltage on any terminal. The scangaugeII can measure MG1 and MG2 temps in C, and currents I believe. See my thread on "03 Classic Prius and the scangaugeII" for all GEN1 Xgauges thanks to Vincent.
    Doesn't sound like it's the HV battery as you were able to charge it up and "see" this on the display. Good luck!
     
    #12 w2co, May 19, 2010
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  13. w2co

    w2co Member

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    Here are some of the Scangauge Xgauge values. Most tested to work on GEN1 just fine.
    I'll try to get MG1 and MG2 Current next.

    XGauge TXD RXF RXD MTH NAME Notes
    State-of-Charge
    82D5F10191044185912808000A00020000 socXX.X %
    Battery Block 1 Voltage
    82D5F101A4044145A42810000100010000V01XX.X volts
    Battery Block 2 Voltage
    82D5F101A4044145A43810000100010000V02XX.X volts
    Battery Block 3 Voltage
    82D5F101A5044145A52810000100010000V03XX.X volts
    Battery Block 4 Voltage
    82D5F101A5044145A53810000100010000V04XX.X volts
    Battery Block 5 Voltage
    82D5F101A6044145A62810000100010000V05XX.X volts
    Battery Block 6 Voltage
    82D5F101A6044145A63810000100010000V06XX.X volts
    Battery Block 7 Voltage
    82D5F101A7044145A72810000100010000V07XX.X volts
    Battery Block 8 Voltage
    82D5F101A7044145A73810000100010000V08XX.X volts
    Battery Block 9 Voltage
    82D5F101A8044145A82810000100010000V09XX.X volts
    Battery Block 10 Voltage
    82D5F101A8044145A83810000100010000V10XX.X volts
    Battery Block 11 Voltage
    82D5F101A9044145A92810000100010000V11XX.X volts
    Battery Block 12 Voltage
    82D5F101A9044145A93810000100010000V12XX.X volts
    Battery Block 13 Voltage
    82D5F101AA044145AA2810000100010000V13XX.X volts
    Battery Block 14 Voltage
    82D5F101AA044145AA3810000100010000V14XX.X volts
    Battery Block 15 Voltage
    82D5F101AB044145AB2810000100010000V15XX.X volts
    Battery Block 16 Voltage
    82D5F101AB044145AB3810000100010000V16XX.X volts
    Battery Block 17 Voltage
    82D5F101AC044145AC2810000100010000V17XX.X volts
    Battery Block 18 Voltage
    82D5F101AC044145AC3810000100010000V18XX.X volts
    Battery Block 19 Voltage
    82D5F101AD044145AD2810000100010000V19XX.X volts
    Lowest Battery Block Voltage
    82D5F101AE044145AE2810000100010000VloXX.X volts
    Highest Battery Block Voltage
    82D5F101AF044145AF2810000100010000VhiXX.X volts
    Lowest Battery Block Number
    82D5F101AE044105AE3808000100010000BloXX
    Highest Battery Block Number
    82D5F101AF044105AF3808000100010000BhiXX
    Battery Block 1 Resistance
    82D5F101CA044105CA2808000100010000R01XX mΩ
    Battery Block 2 Resistance
    82D5F101CA044105CA3008000100010000R02XX mΩ
    Battery Block 3 Resistance
    82D5F101CA044105CA3808000100010000R03XX mΩ
    Battery Block 4 Resistance
    82D5F101CA044105CA4008000100010000R04XX mΩ
    Battery Block 5 Resistance
    82D5F101CB044105CB2808000100010000R05XX mΩ
    Battery Block 6 Resistance
    82D5F101CB044105CB3008000100010000R06XX mΩ
    Battery Block 7 Resistance
    82D5F101CB044105CB3808000100010000R07XX mΩ
    Battery Block 8 Resistance
    82D5F101CB044105CB4008000100010000R08XX mΩ
    Battery Block 9 Resistance
    82D5F101CC044105CC2808000100010000R09XX mΩ
    Battery Block 10 Resistance
    82D5F101CC044105CC3008000100010000R10XX mΩ
    Battery Block 11 Resistance
    82D5F101CC044105CC3808000100010000R11XX mΩ
    Battery Block 12 Resistance
    82D5F101CC044105CC4008000100010000R12XX mΩ
    Battery Block 13 Resistance
    82D5F101CD044105CD2808000100010000R13XX mΩ
    Battery Block 14 Resistance
    82D5F101CD044105CD3008000100010000R14XX mΩ
    Battery Block 15 Resistance
    82D5F101CD044105CD3808000100010000R15XX mΩ
    Battery Block 16 Resistance
    82D5F101CD044105CD4008000100010000R16XX mΩ
    Battery Block 17 Resistance
    82D5F101CE044105CE2808000100010000R17XX mΩ
    Battery Block 18 Resistance
    82D5F101CE044105CE3008000100010000R18XX mΩ
    Battery Block 19 Resistance
    82D5F101CE044105CE3808000100010000R19XX mΩ
    Battery Air Temperature 82D5F101B2044105B2280800010001FFD8TBiXX °C
    Battery Temperature, Sensor 1 82D5F101D0044105D0280800010001FFD8TS1XX °C
    Battery Temperature, Sensor 2 82D5F101D0044105D0300800010001FFD8TS2XX °C
    Battery Temperature, Sensor 3 82D5F101D0044105D0380800010001FFD8TS3XX °C
    Battery Temperature, Sensor 4 82D5F101D1044105D1280800010001FFD8TS4XX °CHV
    Battery Current
    82D5F101A3044185A328100001000AFB00Bta+/- XX.X A
    MG1 Inverter Temperature
    8216F101CD044105CD280800010001FFCETi1XX °C
    MG2 Inverter Temperature
    8216F101CD044105CD300800010001FFCETi2XX °C
    MG1 Temperature
    8216F101CE044105CE280800010001FFCETM1XX °C
    MG2 Temperature
    8216F101CE044105CE300800010001FFCETM2XX °C
    Edit: Change Battery Block Resistance to mΩ (milliohm).
    All battery block voltages are for "pairs" of cells.
     
    #13 w2co, May 19, 2010
  14. clatsop

    clatsop New Member

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    Patrick: Thanks for the suggestions. There was a minor mishap with the front bumper (when a car backed into us) back in about 2007, but the vehicle started okay for the following 2.5 years. No driveability issues at all. The price tag to using a shotgun approach and swapping in different modules is too steep.

    andyprius: Thanks for the question. w2co is correct about the Gen 1 / 2 voltage differences. Since the 284V we measured indicates a bit low on the display, and the discussions about the initial battery design parameters trying to hit 40%-60% of capacity, I suspect the 273.6V figure might be a bit low for normal operation.

    w2co: I'm pretty sure the sound up front is the inverter coolant pump kicking in, not the MG1, since it coincides with the key going from ACC to ON as opposed to START. You say "easy check", but I cannot see any "easy" way to remove the inverter (suggestions welcome), given that there doesn't even seem to be a way of checking and re-seating the connectors on the firewall side of the unit. We were able to pop the top of the inverter, and found that it is extremely clean, with no darkened parts or burnt smell.

    Can someone provide a URL where I can find a diagram (or better yet, photos) of where all the electronic modules are located, and which is which? I have some basic schematics and a few photos in the Haynes Repair Manual, but a photo of (at minimum) the ECU would be nice so a can be sure I am looking at the right thing. Also, how would one power the inverter directly from a 12V deep cycle battery, and would this turn MG1 without the electronics having to give their approval?

    And yes, folks, we are being extremely careful around the high voltages, wearing insulated gloves.
     
    #14 clatsop, May 19, 2010
  15. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    techinfo.toyota.com is where you can download official Toyota repair manual info which includes exploded parts diagrams, electrical wiring diagrams, etc.

    The engine ECU is located behind the glove box while the hybrid vehicle ECU is located under the carpet in front of the front passenger seat.

    The hybrid vehicle ECU controls the inverter and the MGs, and you cannot easily bypass it.

    Sounds like you'll need to have your car towed to have the Toyota subcodes read, if you do not wish to take the risk of substituting parts.
     
    #15 Patrick Wong, May 19, 2010
  16. jk450

    jk450 New Member

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    How would you interpret a zero ohms reading between all phases?

    Why would you disconnect the "main battery"?

    Why would you let the inverter "sit" for an hour?
     
    #16 jk450, May 20, 2010
  17. clatsop

    clatsop New Member

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    Patrick: Thanks for the locations of the modules.

    jk450: Can you shed some more light on your questions to w2co? [1] Do the windings to ground go to zero ohms, or is there a higher internal resistance? Would zero ohms indicate a dead short? [2] I would tend to pull the HV battery plug before doing anything around the inverter, and then plug it back in for doing measurements. [3] Based on the capacitor discharge we measured after unplugging the HV battery during re-charging, coupled with seeing the 3 large capacitors inside the inverter, it takes a little bit of time for voltages to go to zero. Not sure if a full hour is required, however, so actual measurements would be the preferred safety method.

    A bit of ranting follows (not at all related to the person posting the link).

    I looked at the https://techinfo.toyota.com website (which cannot, I see, be accessed without dropping browser security levels below Homeland Security recommended levels). It is a very ominous warning about Toyota as a company to see how much they have structured this site as a corporate profit center. I don't mind paying for the reproduction costs of technical details as printed material or electronic media, but the information access rates posted on https://techinfo.toyota.com are no less than ridiculous. Seems like an awful lot of corporate profit built into one small vehicle. Remember Toyota, I did pay for the vehicle, plus 5.5 years of your financing charges, and never could get you to live up to your obligation to fix all the problems under warranty.
     
    #17 clatsop, May 20, 2010
  18. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Yes, the techinfo site is not easy to use, but that may be better than paying $400 for the paper manuals.

    The message conveyed by jk's questions is sometimes unclear. In this case I think he is trying to indicate that:

    1) it will be hard to distinguish between normal resistance measurements between the three phases of the windings, vs. windings that are shorted together. However, the resistance from the windings to ground should be infinite.

    2) you are correct, removing the orange safety interlock plug is sufficient. No need to physically disconnect the traction battery cables.

    3) the repair manual advises waiting 5 minutes. Certainly it is preferable to use your voltmeter to determine when voltages have dropped to zero.
     
    #18 Patrick Wong, May 20, 2010
  19. jk450

    jk450 New Member

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    Motor terminal resistance to ground should be infinite, as measured with a standard ohmmeter. You should expect a code if there is a problem here.

    Yes.

    That would depend on the measurement.

    Time intervals and measuring points vary by vehicle and component, and can be found in the repair manuals. Five minutes for the Gen 1.

    I disagree. Toyota offers some of the lowest information access rates in the industry.
     
    #19 jk450, May 24, 2010
  20. jk450

    jk450 New Member

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    There is no message. Perhaps w2co knows something that the rest of us don't know. Why not ask?

    Actually, it is a requirement, and is clearly laid out as such in the repair manual.
     
    #20 jk450, May 24, 2010
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