Run Away Prius a Hoax

Say what you want..But all the mumbo jumbo on toothbrushes ain't changing the question..Was there a problem with the software or wasn't there one ?...They felt it wasn't adequate.. If it quacks like a duck..looks like a duck ..Its a duck..Your not facing reality...recalls are not done for perfect items.Complaints were coming in long before people wanting to profit on making up a hoax.Toyota has run sales now on the car, do you feel better that you overpaid for a perfect car ? If people outside this forum shared the same opinion on the Prius, there would be absolutely no need to run a special sale. ANY person buying a new car should not have a doubt on safety or reliability. I wonder how many parents bought their kid a Toyota lately ?

As for your Bermuda Triangle analogy on America,you are probably one of those people that hasn't won the lottery and because you haven't won, you don't believe the lottery ever pays off .

I haven't had a problem, other then the car not getting its MPG in this city. But my experience in my car can't speak for everyone owning one.

 

I believe the term for this feature is "Brake Assist". I wasn't aware that N would disable this; can any of the other techies on the forum confirm that this is true? I can't see any technical reason why it would be so.

Even if it does, it's not a big issue. You normally don't drive a car in N. In the event of shifting to N in an emergency, the driver will already be braking, which removes the advantage of Brake Assist. Brake Assist doesn't increase the braking force, it speeds up the application of brake force in a panic stop. This will shave off a bit of reaction time, but if you are already slowing down, reaction time has been removed from the equation.

As an aside, for mostly historical reasons, it is illegal to coast in N in most states.

Tom

 

The test should probably also include a test to make sure you can reach the accelerator with your hand while keeping your eyes on the road if you have to ! On second thoughts, maybe not...I probably wouldn't be able to pass.

 

The brake programming for the Gen III was a decision made by Toyota's engineers. They made the wrong decision for most folks (although I still think if even a 2 second delay makes you run into someone you were following too closely). Toyota called it a recall. Ford's Fusion and Milan have the same delay. They chose not to call it a recall.

No, I know one person who won the lottery personally. And I know that Mr. Sikes won the lottery and got on TV because he did.

 

Toyota decided to put a bug in the cars to make them less safe and that was the right decision for some people?

What method of software design do you follow?

If you have proof it is the same delay in the fords please show me the lines of code. Its not. That is false speculation based on no knowledge, only wishing. I'm not sure what the point is of this misinformation. Both companies had bugs that they fixed. Neither company had a design meeting to say lets give drivers some excitement and put a delay in abs that hits a small number of cars a few times a year.

I suppose that not recording braking data in the edr of the avalon was a design decision to help protect the privacy of avalon drivers also.

A car traveling at 30mph will travel 88 feet in 2 seconds. If you think you leave a gap big enough for that brake drop out, your driving conditions are very different than mine.

Why do you believe the reports of sikes lottery, but not the reports of prius drivers with brake problems?

 

not that i don't think the sikes incident is a hoax, but there was an old dude in england recently who ran over his wife in a parking lot allegedly due to an SUA. and there are many reports of SUA's in Japan where most prii live.

 

Not only is THIS episode a hoax - there isn't a thing wrong with ANY Toyota including those on the recall list.

History will show me correct just like with Audi. Sadly, the press almost killed the Audi name back then. I expect more of the same this go around.

Given Audi's experience, Toyota is taking a much different approach than Audi. Audi correctly denied the bogus problem - that strategy nearly killed the company. Toyota's obvious strategy is to create a "problem" that they can easily fix to show the Ameritard public that all Toyotas are now safe.

WINNERS: Other Auto makers
The Media

LOSERS: Toyota
Those who own Toyotas


-Brad

 

Just like with Audi - he was pressing on the gas and thought it was the brake. Either that, or he broke several laws of physics.

It's sad and a terrible tragedy for the family, but it's not a Toyota issue.

-Brad

 

The brake delay in the Gen III Prius and the Ford hybrid cars is milliseconds, which translate to tenth of a second. The Gen III Prius delay was originally 700 milliseconds or 7/10 of a second and it was shortened but I dont know how much but probably halved maybe.

You can do the math from there. The driver reaction time delay is also in milliseconds do a search on Google and see how far you will go do to slow driver response time which varies with age!

 

The 2 seconds was not my figure, I was responding to the previous post that put out that figure. We don't know what the worst case is of the brake drop out, but 0.7 seconds was a measured by a forum member. My incidents felt shorter than that, and I am sure others have experienced longer problems. I have not felt the drop out since my software was updated, but I suspect that the transition period is now consistent and much shorter.

I say safety issue, others say not, but that was not the point of my post. There was definitely a bug, that was fixed. Toyota admitted it directly. There is revisionist history that says, oh its just bad drivers that don't know how to use the brakes, or follow too close. That is the reasoning that I would like to go away. Its false and misleading.

IMHO there is a chance of other bugs in software that could be causing unintended acceleration. Others claim that it isn't possible. I was defending the post that said we already know that Toyota has had software bugs and fixed them, why rule this out in unintended acceleration.

I agree that this case was most likely a hoax, but there is a small possibility in my mind that software problems caused unintended acceleration. Other reports in other models of Toyotas sound like software or electronic problems are a possibility.

 

There is a "standard", normal braking delay in ALL Toyota HSD systems INCLUDING the knock-off/clones by Ford. When ABS detects a need for activation, INITIAL need, the regen braking will be disabled. ABS can control frictional braking plus frictional braking is more evenly distributed, applys to all four wheels.

It is that transitional 100-200 Millisecond braking gap that ALL HSD drivers feel each time the ABS detects a need to initially activate. Often, if not most the time, the transition to more evenly distributed frictional braking resolves the issue and ABS remains "quiet".

The recall for the 2010 Prius is different in that when the transition occurs the overall braking effort after the transition is less than the braking effort beforehand unless the driver increases the brake pedal pressure to compensate.

I suspect this has to do with the 2010 switch to disc brakes all around. The level of pressure needed for those "new" rear disc brakes is not equal to that required for the old drum brakes.

Simple firmware specification oversight.

Engineers, HARDWARE engineers, changed the design without realizing the programmers needed to be involved/notified.

Typical.

 

After the fix for the "bug" some Gen III drivers are complaining about how fast the brakes stop. No doubt there will be people who file complaints about whiplash.

Ford already had a fix ready that they implemented as a part of their customer satisfaction program after the Toyota Prius recall. They were not required to call it a recall. Public record.

I don't design software, and unless you work for Toyota or Ford I doubt you have a copy of their code.

If you can't stop in 37 feet (.7 seconds), you are following too closely. If you're going 30 mph, you should be at least 45 feet behind the car in front of you (one car length for every 10 mph). Yes, you're likely to get cut off but it's smarter to get cut off than to rear end someone.

EDRs are not required until 2012. I don't see any reason to believe there is some kind of conspiracy on the part of Toyota not to record data to cover their decision to kill off their customers.

I believe Mr. Sikes won the lottery in 2006 because it's a matter of public record. When did I say that Prius drivers did not experience a delay in braking? The question is whether that delay is sufficient to constitute a horrific safety issue like an engine that catches on fire or when the brakes fail completely. I think not. It is not the product of a nefarious conspiracy.

Should people take their Prii in to Toyota for the software update? Of course. To do otherwise can cause liability issues for them.

 

No there wasnt one. They made one up to try and appease the idiots. Nobody said it was perfect, but it isnt broken and unsafe. Improvements can be made for anything, a prius is no difference. I didt overpay, I took advantage of this hysteria and bought way below KBB from some wanker who watches Fox News. They are running a sale to regain sales. Only reason they lost sales is because of mass hysteria. Same thing happens all the time for various things, the people around here follow like sheep and those with more intelligence can profit from their stupidity. When my car appreciates in value, I'll be an even happier camper.

I dont get the lottery analogy. Am I missing something here? I was referring to the fact that other places dont have this problem using the same firmware.

Also again, it is impossible, yes IMPOSSIBLE, for a ECU to freeze and lock the car in some mode. Watchdog timers prevent this. Something that proves this is the guy on here with the christmas tree display when his 12v died or something. The whole car lit up for a split second, then it reset and coasted in neutral. This is a logic conclusion to a system failure. A problem existed, a timer elapsed, an ECU reset, and didnt come out of reset properly causing a forced shutdown and neutral state. This is coming from an Electrical and Computer Engineer with experience in car electronics and multiple component computing. What you and other people who are uniformed dont realize is the specific nature of embedded systems. This is the toothbrush analogy. They are everwhere and control everything nowadays. If they fail which is not very often, they do so gracefully when programmed correctly. Since various failures have resulted in graceful failure, other failures will do the same making the SUA a moot point.

 

Watchdog timers only assure that the "watchdog" interrupt service routine is executed on a regular basis. In between those times the firmware is "free" to return to executing a "deadly" embrace, or an endless loop resulting from a "race" condition.

Yes, watchdog timers can result in a "reboot/restart" if the firmware crawls entirely into a rathole and does not service the watchdog timers non-maskable interrupt. But in my long experience that is not always the case.

"..they do so gracefully when programmed correctly..."

When programmed correctly....!!

No question there.

"..making the SUA a moot point.."

Yes, along with the "improper programming" of the ABS ECU ("computer") in the 2010 Prius. no recall warranted.

 

And the media was just quoting what someone else said without checking into facts and look what happened.

It's not a "bug". It was working as programmed, but based on complaints it was determined that it should be altered. A bug is when you find that something isn't working as expected and something odd happens. To call it a bug is false and misleading imho.

That being said, I'm glad they are making the adjustment even though it doesn't make me feel unsafe. I would have already had it done if I felt it was a bug or a safety issue.

 

more misinformation. Toyota had multiple software revisions. The brake recall was about abs brakes. They also have been changing brake feel. This a dishonest post. DO you know of a single user that complained that in abs situations the car stopped faster?

Why does this matter? They both were bugs. Toyota may have issued the recall because they were fighting the safety agencies in japan and the United States and were challenged. It would have been beter if they cooperated like ford and issued an SSB.

I have been a software engineer, and a product manager for embedded systems. I have software running in commercial jets and pace makers. I also designed a machine to test airbag sensors. I know that the hardware is different between the models which requires different software. I do not have a copy of the code, but did not claim that it was the same bug. I find it highly unlikely that could exist. There may be the same design flaw. Don't misrepresent the information.

You realize that you defended having logging information without implementation. Your defense was privacy issues. This is clearly false. I believe your reasoning is false in this case if not knowingly misrepresenting facts. That toyota has not violated this law yet is a totally different issue.

I never said horrific. You claimed that it was not a bug. This is false.

this is the only point we agree on.

 

I'm sorry but what what?

If your software is designed to accelerate at random times you say that it is operating correctly? That would be a design defect.

Toyota said they were not able to recreate the "design defect" until colder weather. They did not design in brake drop out. They obviously missed some programming in design. How do you think the design meeting went? In the case when regenerant braking is going on, let's put in a random delay of .2-1.2 seconds. When the friction brakes kick in lets have them pulse to create .1x-1x times the braking force. Take the time of day and a random number to chose which number in the range to use.

Its a bug. Its not braking feel. Toyota never said it wasn't a bug. They changed braking feel also. Read their press.

 

LOL! The scenario you stated happens only when braking in pure regen. If the driver brake harder than 34hp, friction pad will kick in and the ABS would function without any delay.

 

The issue of "randomness" is hard to respond to since I haven't seen any confirmation that Toyota can "fix" the physics of different types of surfaces, different speeds, and different tires/tire tread.

I'll let Toyota explain its position: Toyota Prius Recall - Update ABS Software - 2010 Prius Brakes

and Ford, its action: Ford Offers "Proactive" Hybrid Regenerative Brake Software Update - Wide Open Throttle - Motor Trend Magazine


I do not respond directly to posters who call me a liar. You can say I'm wrong. You can say I'm stupid. Saying that I'm knowingly giving false information is inappropriate.

 

Is this happening in pure friction mode, or is it tied to the regen-to-friction transition?

Any driver moving at 30 mph and expecting to stop in under 200 feet is starting with friction mode, skipping regen altogether.