TMC Execs encouraged US to "keep quiet"-US Exec disagreed

Here we go again...

 

Guess I must be dumb - sorry ... the Frank Bernard name doesn't ring a bell ... & googling it, the top search results? Wedding gowns and painters. So I don't know what Fox news, wedding gowns or painters have to do with each other. Feel free to walk me down the garden path.

+1

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Perhaps it makes sense to recognize there are distinct quality issues:

1. FLOOR MAT - all Toyotas, the Saylor fatal accident in Sept. 2009 and a non-fatal Prius accident, Report: DS07010 "Uninitended Acceleration/Hybrid ODI Vehicle Investigation", Sept. 24, 2007, two years earlier. The Prius accident involved a crash and fire without injuries but the accident report reads very much like the fatal Saylor accident two years later. Known floor mat fatalities, the Saylor family. I have personal experience with an unsecured floor mat that I recognized and had corrected before my wife drove the car.
2. ACCELERATOR - non-Prius, USA and Canadian built Toyotas, a latent design defect can lead to friction binding. This impacted nearly all models except the Prius and Scion. This is the one associated with the $16 M. proposed fine because some dealerships were notified in September but NHTSA was not notified until January. Fatality status is imprecise.
3. BRAKE PAUSE - Prius specific, a recall effort, SSC-A0B, flashes new software to reduce intermittent braking pauses. Note that the production Prius were receiving the update before the USA and world-wide recall began. Fatality, accident and injury status is imprecise.
4. STUPIDITY, IGNORANCE, and WRONG PEDAL - The Sikes runaway, the New York runaway, and mostly elderly and those with no prior Prius experience seem to hit the accelerator instead of the brake and then handle it badly. This seems to be common across many vehicles and started first with the Audi.

Toyota has acknowledged a quality problem and taken effective steps to prevent this from happening in the future. Hindsight is always 20/20 and it has not been the way anyone would wish it to be. So there will be some clean-up and there may be more legacy problems to be addressed (aka., NHW20 brake pause and my "Check Engine Light" concern.)

I'm seeing the right path being charted and can only commend Toyota as they become more 'open book' about how this refocused, Quality program proceeds.

Bob Wilson

 

My loyalty is primarily to myself and my own wallet. I'd buy a Prius or Highlander or Venza hybrid (?) again in a heartbeat because I believe in the product and the technology. In addition all my prior Toyota vehicles have treated me well so it's not like this unnamed ethically-challenged executive had any effect on the quality of my own personal experience.

I do think that situations and actions like this will move some fence-sitters away from Toyota - for a while. But like other well known 'celebrities' that have done stupid things if they apologize, correct and move on then the public will eventually forgive. First and foremost the public is concerned with itself above everyone else. If Toyota continues to make vehicles that meet my needs, save me money with good value and reliability then they'll continue to earn my business.

 

Accrording to the Toyota PR damage control team several months after last summer's Saylor ES350 runaway incident Frank Bernard contacted Toyota. He told them that a week or so before the Saylor incident he had driven the self-same ES350 dealer loaner and had encountered an engine runaway which he attributed to the wrong floor mats being in the vehicle. He said he had reported his concern to the dealer receptionist.

Apparently the receptionist couldn't remember the incident when first questioned but then only later upon being questioned again she did remember. She said she remembered an older couple bringing the matter up and her having passed the info on to the "detail specialist" (IMMHO that would the teeny-bopper, McD "flipper", graduate).

Put me in Frank Bernard's shoes, assuming he actually exists, and the suspect floor mat would have been TOSSED at the service manager that provided the ES350 "loaner". As a minimum I would have removed them for the duration of my remaining use of the loaner, in the trunk most probably.

Insofar as I've been able to determine Toyota's Frank Bernard has never been heard from subsequently.

 

That's only your personal opinion. It's based neither in fact nor science. It's purely specualtion because you were not within 1000 miles of the incident. But your personal opinion needs no facts, you can say whatever you believe, accurate or not.

The facts are that the SD Sheriff's office and the NHTSA and the report of the prior driver ( Bernard ) of that vehicle all implicate the mats. Nothing else.

Believe what you want, it's your perogative.

IN this post you're simply trying to increase the level of FUD.

But again like many you don't need facts nor do you need to do any research. You can simply state your opinion even if that opinion is based on laziness and lack of follow-thru.

Try this. There's this feature on the internetz called Google.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/2009/dec/04/report-loaner-car-in-fatal-crash-had-earlier/

 

1.) No one has officially concluded that the floor mats were at fault in the Saylor runaway incident. And most likely no one EVER will. Oh, other than a few self imposed Toyota "shills", or maybe an idiot or two here and there.

2.) PR damage control distraction, smoke screen. Magician's trick, look over there, not over here where the action is taking place.

3.) What's important "here" is that the computer controlling the frictional braking, the skid control computer, and the computer controlling regenerative braking, the HSD control computer, were sometimes not communicating well, correctly, or not in a timely manner.

The regenerative braking was being disabled due to the anti-lock system ("message" from the skid control computer) detecting a need for ABS activation/"intervention". SOP, HSD owners will always sense a braking gap in these instances.

But due to the 2010 Prius software bug the resulting braking shortfall was not being "taken up", seemingly indefinitely, absent the driver using more foot pressure to take up the braking "slack".

FLAWED FIRMWARE design, by Toyota's own admission.


4.) It seems highly improbable to me that Sikes could have mistaken the gas pedal for the brake pedal for the entire duration of that frightening 100MPH 30 mile "ride".

And the latest from Toyota is that he applied the brake pedal ~250 times and the throttle was WIDE OPEN. No mention of the gas pedal being applied ~250 times as was initially stated, in fact no mention of the gas pedal in any context.

What is NOT being said in this corrected version is much more important than what is being said.

"..I'm seeing..."

No, it will be decades, maybe centurys, before we see significant changes in the Japanese societal culture in this regard. Their legal system will have to rise to the US level in order for that to come about.

 

"..based on laziness and lack of follow-thru.."

If you don't mind, or what the hell, even if you do mind, I'll just continue to attribute my opinions to keeping my mind open until the evidence is conclusive enough.

 

Does anyone know why this VP "retired" right after the email? It will be interesting what conclusions the grand jury have. It is going to be a very long year for toyota, in the automotive world the thought is this is far from over.

 

Within the very news article you linked, referenced, the reporters state that Bernard refused to be interviewed. So, then, from where, which/what source did statements the reporters attributed to Bernard come..??

Toyota..??

 

Again in both posts you continue to ignore what has been found officially. Here's some assistance for the needy I'll help you...

From the San Diego Union-Tribune article that I referenced above.

Again you're free to hold whatever unsubstantiated opinion you wish. Just don't pretend to be impartial when you're not.

 

That is a good start of the list. There are a couple of other categories for reported incidents.

5) False reports: There always seem to be some that do it for various reasons. These include publicity, grudge, boredom.

6) Other causes: We should be open to the possibility that other things might be going on. This includes possible mechanical, electronic, and software issues. Yes, for you fan boys out there is a possibility that this is now empty.

Hopefully you'll find that Sikes is either in category 5 or 6.


If you add toyota to your Frank Bernard search you get a number of results. Here is one.

Report inconclusive on floor mat's role in fatal Toyota crash - Los Angeles Times

If you read the full article you will see that they did not rule out electronics or software. I'm not trying to reopen it. Its just that people state facts that aren't facts.

Toyota was caught in November by NHTSA spreading misleading information. That would have been the appropriate time to come clean on other issues. They've been caught and will pay a small meaningless fine.

I hope the new 70 people in the quality organization add a breath of fresh air, and safety issues won't continue to be hidden.

 

The automotive world has changed drastically since that conclusion, if the crash happened tomorrow do you think the conclusion would be the floor mat? I will never believe the floor mat caused that crash. A professional driver experiencing SUA for over a minute? No way.

Has anyone stopped to think if this probelm and coverup was with Ford or GM and the problem was happening in Japan? I know it is purely hypothetical because the Japanese would never let a foreign manufacturer sell 15% of the Japanese market, but just hypotheticallly how hot would that be in Japan. Remember Japan banning US beef?

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/business/global/08beef.html

 

You too as a GM dealer are free to hold whatever unsubstantiated opinion you wish based on your own speculations and lack of facts and data.

I'll simply base my opinion on the report by Mr Bernard and the findings of the SD Sheriff's office and NHTSA.

 

In September 2007, two years before the Saylor fatal accident (see first attachment) a 2005 Prius ran away due to floor mat entrapment. It crashed into a convience store and burned. No one was injured in part because the car was going so slowly during the impact. The driver did not know to shift into "NEUTRAL."

The floor mat of our 2010 Prius as delivered May 2009, four months before the Saylor fatal accident:

I noticed the floor mat was not secured and returned the next day to the dealer to get the clips, which were not found in the car.

In September 2009, the preliminary Saylor fatal accident report (see second attachement.) It also shows accelerator entrapment by a non-standard floor mat ... just like the 2007 Prius accident.

I'm being kind by putting him in the STUPID category when in fact he was an obstinate fool who ignored the 911 operation instruction to put the car in neutral. He waited until a California Highway Patrol Officer put his life at risk to shout the same instructions using the bullhorn to the tell Sikes what to do. Panic, I understand. Not following instructions when you call up for help . . . probably found in Dante's poem:

• Vestibule - for those who did nothing, pursued by wasps and hornets
• Limbo - for those who though not sinful, did not accept salvation
• Wrath and Sullenness - for Sikes failure to follow help that was offered to him

Any of these three in Dante's poem marks where I would expect to find Sikes.

Bob Wilson

 

Irv Miller, Toyota's top U.S. environmental exec, and 2 others to retire — Autoblog Green

This might also explain why no one bothered to tell him about the recall and planned meetings with NHTSA.

 

***1) Apparently a witness observed the Saylor ES350 just prior to the runaway incident. What the witness says is that they saw a white Lexus with the hazard lights blinking and the car was doing 40-50 MPH and appeared to be "surging" as if it was low on gas. The witness said that the ES350 pulled over to the side of the road as they lost sight of it.

The Saylor Lexus was next observed as a "white blurr" as it raced by other traffic at speeds in excess of 100 MPH.

So, what problem, or problems, occurred with the Saylor Lexus that caused him to turn on the hazard lights...??? The lexus not reponding to the gas pedal reliably, correctly?? The hazard lights were on because Saylor knew he was going slower than approaching traffic would expect, and might come to a stop before coming to a safe pull-off..??

Whatever the cause Saylor clearly thought it to be corrected, under control, or he would not have returned to the freeway and certainly not without the hazard lights on.

While this part of the story is clearly not in conflict with the floor mat theory but it raises other doubts.

***2) In order for the Prius, or any Toyota HSD system, to have a functional neutral when the ICE is running the MGs MUST turn in a direction and rate to COUNTER the ICE drive input to the CVT/PSD.

In the situation Sikes enountered the MGs are quite clearly also OUT OF CONTROL, "aiding and abetting" the WOT ICE.

In this case the ICE was running at WOT, ~5000 RPM. Assuming you DO KNOW how the PSD works, would you willingly slip the gear shift into neutral.... WITHOUT tripidation..??

I certainly would NOT.

I would be concerned that doing so might result in sudden and complete, EXTREME engine "compression" braking, EXTREME braking ONLY on the front, driven, wheels.

Just maybe Sikes knew what he was talking about when he expressed concern that shifting into neutral might cause the Prius to "flip".

So in the end, yes, I might try shifting into neutral, but be prepared to quickly shift back into drive should the result be adverse.

 

Yeah, right. Our legal system is considered to be an example of what not to do by most of the world.

 

"...The cause of the crash was determined..."

Methinks you need to learn to read high profile news articles a bit more carefully.

The above BOLD statement is taken directly from the article you linked. Go back and read it again and note that this statement has NO attribution. It most likely WAS NOT made by any Sheriff's department official, just worded very craftily such that the reader makes, comes to, that conclusion.

The interim paragraph is there intentionally so that the reporters are protected from a "misquote" charge.

 

From the Saylor report:

As a former pilot on this side of the grass, I was taught that when you make a MAYDAY call:

• Climb
• Communicate
• Confess
• Comply

Sikes failed the fourth directive. He might as well have thrown the phone out the window for all the good he made of it. The irony is the Saylor fatal accident probably resulted in the 911 operators being taught the correct procedure. Yet Sikes . . . should be in Dante's poem.

Bob Wilson