Nissan Leaf vs Prius

If it's that big of a deal, a generator will fix that problem. Or you know move to a real town.

Do you know the difference between Photovoltaic panel and a solar water heater? Do you know how much money households spend on something that will never be recovered?

 

The difference is - In a prius, if my empty light come on while driving to work, there's a REAL good chance i will be able to find a gas station to fill up and finish my comute. With EV, if you're bars dip below a certain level on your way to/from work, right now, you are screwed. Call a tow truck.

 

I live in a 'real town". Probably better town than where you live.

Generator is certainly an option if I owned a EV. That said, it still does not help you when the power goes out in the middle of the night, and you're not even aware until you get up in the morning. Then what? Fire up your generator and wait 5 hours?

By my estimates, an EV will work just fine for the following groups of people:

(1) people with short comutes (less than 10 miles).
(2) urbanites that can also take mass transit if needed.
(3) retirees with no place to go in a hurry.
(4) people with an extra car just laying around.
(5) stay at home people

Yes, and yes. do you? My neighbor has shown me all the numbers, and for him, it works...but he plans to be in the house for a very long time. Payback is still a very long time, in part, because we don't live in the desert, with 365 days of sun.

 

If you're really that important, they should be paying you more - enough to afford a 2nd car.

 

I am. They do.

I have 3 cars. One for me. One for my wife (who works), and the third is shared between my two college age boys that use it to go to college and/ or work. Anything else. Maybe i need a 4th car? I'd have to then build a bigger driveway.

At what point does owning a EV not make sense?

 

I lived in a real town and now live in the city, you want to know the last time I lost power? more than 10 years ago. People that live in Calcutta lose power less frequently than you do. That sounds like a great place to live.

again there are generators that are tied in your power lines that will turn on when there is no power. I know it's amazing but tech has advanced in the last couple of years. The yield on a Pv panel has also increased, making it cheaper to go off grid. sure the pay off time is 10-15 years, but unless you are a houseflipper the value stays in the house.

 

Really? Calcutta? Do they have trees in Calcutta? It's all those damn trees...Do you have any data to back that up, or like everything else you've said to this point, just more hot air?

Yes, there is. We've had our power company, as well as electricians come out to explore that option. What do you think that option might cost? Go ahead, give it your best estimete. I got estimates just last year...so I KNOW how much it would cost for MY house.

I'll save you the time - if the power company does it, with their generator, it's almost $15K (that includes a new circuit breaker box). If I use a private electrician, with a smaller generator, i can cut the cost in half.

It's just not $$ viable for the 3 or 4 times per year I lose power. Period.

I'll say it again, here are the groups of people who I think owning a EV will appeal to:

(1) people with short comutes (less than 10 miles).
(2) urbanites that can also take mass transit if needed. Although this might be problemmatic if no garage to re-charge.
(3) retirees with no place to go in a hurry.
(4) people with an extra car just laying around.
(5) stay at home people

 

I lived in Calcutta for 2 years, power outages? none

The infrastructure for Evs are being built, the leaf won't fit my needs, but a Tesla Model S will( I can't find anyone that can argue with a 300 mile range and a quick charge time of 45 minutes). I know it's on the expensive side, but plenty of people by BMWs, and Benz(s) that not only cost more for the car, but run on premium fuel, get less mpg and more expensive to maintain.

I can see taking a trip in a leaf, but it would have to be about 200 miles (one quick charge stop).

 

My commute is 34 miles roundtrip, I don't anticipate ANY issue whatsoever with that being an issue with the Leaf, even during a category 5 hurricane, in freezing tempatures (well, other than keeping the car on the road from the high winds)

You can find all the reasons in the world why something won't work for you, but in reality, you are mostly being closed minded. EV's will work for a large portion of the US population, it won't be everyone, but almost all can benefit, especially as the range gets larger and larger over the next several years, and public EV fast charge infrastructure gets built out.

 

Just as I am prepared for a towing service if I get a flat and the spare won't work for what-ever reason. Or I get in an accident, or run our of gas and can't/don't want to walk to the nearest gas station.
If the possibility of needing a tow were reason for me not to buy a particular car, I would never buy ANY car.

However, I KNOW that I will avoid the need to add 10 minutes to my errands to refill the gas tank once a month or more.

 

This is what I mean by blown out of proportion...

1) I think a 35-mile (each way) commute should be easily within reach for the Leaf. 10 miles is beyond pessimistic - it's ridiculous.
2) Yep - perfect also for suburbanites who can reach mass transit by driving up to 35 miles or so.
3) Top speed is said to be 87mph, and considering the top (legal) speed in the US is 65mph highway most places (and far lower when off-highway), that should be plenty. Don't forget that EV's have tons of torque off the line.
4) You appear to be one of those people - a 3-car family surely has room for at least 1 EV. The only reason it wouldn't is if each member is so territorial they won't share with anyone else (helluva a family in that case...).
5) Actually, not such a good fit. If you're going to stay at home, you don't need any car, and can use just about any car.

 

Correct. And what they call "fast charging" today is not nearly as fast as it should/could be. Nissan understands their fail on this one, and is already addressing it. As delivered, the car will only charge about half as fast as the cars from the 90's (like mine) and mine was allowed to only charge at 1/4 of the speed that it is capable of! anyway... 120V charging for the new car will be childs play. Convenient... and slow.

Quite true. This is something that we could fix, I think. And there are already solutions - like Zip Car and such where you get approved and carry a card. Reserve online and just show up and take the car. This extra hassle as it currently stands is a manufactured hassle that we can easily solve if we want to.

It depends on who you talk to, but I vote no. There are other more relevant reasons that GM is including a gasoline engine in the Volt. Lack of Range Anxiety is certainly the one they're talking about.

We've driven an EV as our primary motor vehicle for ten years now. We've had a few power outtages. It has never prevented us from using the car. When you park the car at night, it isn't always empty. In fact rarely is it empty. My wife's 40 mile RT commute can easily be done twice on one charge if needed. There are chargers between our house and her work (recall that we eventually have to stop thinking about how things are today, and realize that we can make things work the way we need them to - just like we did with gas stations when gas cars were introduced). Each night when we charge the car after her commute, we need to put about two hours of charge into the car. If she gets home at 6pm, and doesn't leave until 7am... there are lots of hours in there for charging even if the power is out for "any length of time." Some people live and die by their cell phones. What do those people do when a power outage strikes??

And now I have to ask: What if the storm that causes the power outage breaks a tree and crushes your gas car!? Then what? Is the world over? Stuff happens. You deal with it and go on. Sometimes you have to be late for work. Sometimes the gas car doesn't start - would anybody buy a second vehicle just for that eventuality? No, of course not. Stuff happens and you deal with it.

Good lord. Do I need to waste time pointing out that you're wrong?

Except for all evidence to the contrary.

Except for all evidence to the contrary. My EV is eight years old on the original battery pack. H2 fuel stacks - in your world - last forever? Bet they're cheap too! One wonders why I have an EV designed for the 1996 model year... and we've still not been able to buy a FC car.

"Let you have" your own station? My educated guess is that they won't be including an H2 station with the price of the car like they do with the EV chargers. Oh man, that's a good one.

Please, I beg of you. Learn up a bit on the realities of EVs and FCVs.

I've only been driving for 30 years (ten with EV) and I can think of several times when I couldn't buy gas. In fact, every other day for several months, I wasn't allowed to buy gas back in the 70's. We were rationing it and could only buy gas on even or odd days. I've never had to ration my solar-provided electricity.

Not the people who care about clean air! I've had an electric lawn mower for longer than I've had an EV. The ONLY gas on the premises is in the Prius.

You say this with such confidence for somebody who's never lived with an EV. Suffice it to say that I've been stuck with a gas car that wouldn't run more often than I've been stuck with an EV that wouldn't run. Oh... and I guess we all have similar backup plans. There are towing services (gosh, I sure see a lot of gas cars being towed... I wonder what those guys are gonna do if their car doesn't work?) and most of us have friends with cars. Sometimes there are bicycles and busses and trains that can be used. What happens when a car gets a flat? Does it matter if it is electric or gas? Stuff happens. We deal with it.

Gosh, thanks for allowing me to believe in my own reality. I own a Prius that uses gas. I own an EV that doesn't. I have lived with both for many years. Both drivers in the family choose the EV over the Prius whenever possible. I'm not "believing" this. I'm living it. And you're right. There IS no comparison between driving on sunshine while never needing oil changes or tuneups.... and driving on gasoline.

Yeah, you'd only need that for an EV. Nobody ever gets a gas car towed.

You need to drive across Nevada some time. More power outlets than gas stations for sure. Regardless... if I can't charge at home, I can also drive down the street and charge somewhere else. And I have done this - When I had two cars and needed to charge both at the same time. Having to drive ANYWHERE to fill up is a big PITA, however. I prefer to do it at home where I charge 99% of the time.

Was wrong the first time, and is still wrong. Here you go:

Likely at home... before or after the outage.

Correct! There is always something. Sometimes a gas car fails to get you where you're going. Stuff happens. We deal with it. Why are we seeming to ignore that gas cars are imperfect?

Yes please! Great post.

 

That would be my comfort zone, knowing that many times I have to do errands, and make other non-direct trips to/from work/home. Others may have a different commort zone, and by the way, there's nothing etched in stone about 10 miles. Just a rough gauge.

True, but if you're going to do that on a regular basis...why get an EV? I don't know what prices are where you live, but where I am, the weekly cost for doing the mass transit thing ain't cheap. If I had to add that cost into my comute cost, then I doubt I would come out ahead of say, a prius.

...and yet they don't give any numbers for quickness? Mmmm

Yes, top speed is very good, but at anything approaching those speeds, for any length of time, you will NOT, I repeat, you will not get anywhere near the 100 mile reported range.

So I pay $25K + insurance just so I can say I have an EV? What is the point? Seriously, what is the point? My wife's comute is longer than mine, and neither of my college boys would be caught dead in an EV. The economics and logistics of what you propose simply do not add up? I'm not doing EV just so my neighbors can say wow, look he has an EV. If the convenience and economics are there, then I would strongly consider.

Read between the line...stay at home means unemployed, or work from home dad/moms. You still make short trips to do errands, do you not? This is one area that the hybrids do NOT excel in - ie MPGs on short trips good, but not great since the ICE still has to warm up.

IMO, this is the PERFECT place for the EV to fit.

 

This whole "loss of electrical power" problem with EVs reminds me of a similar problem we have where I live. It's called snow. Several times a year it snows so much that no one drives, unless they use a snow machine. We wait it out, until the storm passes and the heavy equipment can do its job.

It's a similar situation with EVs: There will be times when electrical distribution problems will keep people home if they only have an EV. If your power situation makes this unreasonable, then an EV is not the car for you.

Tom

 

Seriously? I do these calculations for my living. I can all but guarantee that your neighbor does NOT use his PV to heat water. And if he does, somebody should quickly sell him a bridge.

Want my "calculations?"

I was paying a bit over $70 month for my electricity. I paid $10,000 for my PV system. I took out a loan for my system (actually refinanced, and tacked on the extra money), and was paying a bit under $70 per month for the part of the loan and principle that went toward the PV. In this way, I paid effectively nothing for my system since my monthly nut was REDUCED after installing the PV. The system was paid off years ago. It powers my entire house and our main vehicle. For free. For the next 20+ years. Best investment I've made in 20 years. Oh, and I don't heat my water with it. totally different "technology."

The other way I look at my PV and EV expenses is thusly:
Eight years ago, I spent $40,000 and got a new car (our current Rav4EV) AND the fuel for any EV we happen to drive - for the rest of our lives. $40k. New car and fuel for the rest of my life. Still sound like a bad investment?

PV purchase and energy-buyback options today make it more affordable than when I did it. Of course cost is hugely dependent on location. I just wanted to point out that yes, I have done the calculations.

 

National security?
Cutting down on city smog and pollution?
Less use of oil/less production of CO2?
Less dependance on price/availability of gasoline?
Lower maintenance costs.

To save your car from putting 2stage engine oil mixed gas in it from your lawnmower if you run out of gas

 

Now wait just a second here. Are you saying that stuff happens... and that you just *deal* with it? The hell you say.

 

I'm glad it works for you and your wife, but your Eutopian World of being able to charge up along the way, is not the reality of my world at the present time. Not to mention my comute is often longer, and along hilly route that will consume more charge than you.

Yes, my world would be over. Next question?

That would be your expereince. I've had to wait in long lines, but never not been able to fill up. Fact.

As far as not having to "ration your solar provided electricity". LOL. Bwhahahaha. Sure you have. Mother nature will determine when you can have some more solar energy. Classic.

Any yet you still have a car that uses gas. mmmmm. Interesting. Not yet a complete believer, I see?

News flash - Chances are, your electricity is coming from someplace that isn't entirley clean - ie fossil fuel powered plant.

OK, mom. But the simple reality is - Why? At least for me, and millions like me, I see no economic upside to EV. If it works for you, that's great. I'm not against EV. I'm just saying it's not viable for my family at this time.

...and how many gas cars, compared to EV cars are there?

No I don't. Why would I possibly want to go to Navada unless I was looking for hookers or going gambling?

 

Yes, seriously.

$70 electric bill?? Stop right there. We're not even on the same block, you and I. No wonder you say it "powers your entire house".

 

National security? OK, if that's what you want to believe. But you might want to work on the folks with big gas guzzling trucks, first. Convince them.

Cutting down smog? That's a good goal. But most of the polution we get here on the East Coast comes from coal burning power plants used to deliver electricty to your Leaf. What do you say about that? What happens when everyone puts huge electricity demands on the grid? Bet they build more coal plans to supply more electricity? Maybe more nuclear plants is the answer? Sorry pal, but nothin' ain't free, and it all has a price. You may think EV is "polution free", but I say, bull.

Lower mainetencae costs? Remains to be seen - especially when you have to replace your battery every 5-8 years at a cost of between $2K-$4K. That will give me a lot of tune-ups, my friend.