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Prius Plug-In Hybrid Vehicle FAQ

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Paradox, Apr 13, 2010.

  1. Paradox

    Paradox Prius Enthusiast / Moderator
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    Toyota has posted a list of FAQs on the Prius PHV demonstration vehicle to their Toyota ESQ site. Not a lot of new information, but it's good information nonetheless.
    What is the EV driving range for the PHVs?
    The lithium-ion battery powered PHV has approximately 13 miles of EV only driving range. Range will vary based on a variety of conditions and driving styles. What is the EV driving maximum speed for the PHV? The PHV demonstration program vehicles can achieve highway speeds (up to approximately 60 mph) on electric only power. Why is the Prius PHV range so short? Toyota is of the belief that the smaller the battery in a PHV the better, both from a total lifecycle assessment (carbon footprint) point of view, as well as a cost point of view. Research has shown that plug-in hybrid vehicles with smaller batteries, charged frequently (every 20 miles or less) with average U.S. electricity produce less green house gas emissions than conventional hybrid vehicles. (according to a 2009 Carnegie Melon University study). And as battery size increases, so does the battery cost resulting in higher overall vehicle cost. What is the MPG and fuel economy of the Prius PHV? The federal government has not yet set a standard for determining MPG on plug-in hybrid vehicles. The Prius PHV has a range of approximately 13 miles of electric only. That 13 miles can vary greatly depending on vehicle speed and driving conditions. Extreme hot (110 degrees F) or cold (20 degrees F) ambient temperatures can also negatively affect lithium-ion battery performance. If a person regularly takes trips of less than 13 miles and charge often, there is a possibility that the vehicle will have no MPG because it will use no gas. When the vehicle is operating in regular hybrid mode, it has an EPA estimated 50 MPG combined city/highway rating. How will plugging in the Prius PHV at home affect the electric bill? The PHV draws approximately one kilowatt per hour and takes approximately three hours to charge. The effect on the bill also will be determined by how often the vehicle is charged. Since electricity rates vary greatly depending on location and utility company, Toyota cannot determine an exact cost. When will the public be able to purchase PHVs? The Prius PHV will come to market in 2012. The PHV demonstration program is designed to gather real world driving data and customer feedback on plug-in hybrid technology. In addition, the program will confirm the overall performance of the first-generation lithium-ion battery technology in a variety of use cases. Toyota must ensure that the vehicle/battery meets customer’s expectations before it is brought to market. The results of this program will make sure that the vehicle coming to market in 2012 will exceed customers’ expectations and meet plug-in customers’ demands. How much will the PHV cost when the vehicle comes to market? Pricing will be announced closer to the vehicle on sale date planned for 2012. Does Toyota expect the EV range to increase when the vehicle comes to market? Toyota continues to improve battery efficiency and performance, but at the same time Toyota must ensure that the product has the right size battery at the right price for customers when it comes to market. In the future, what does Toyota envision as the ideal EV driving range? Toyota needs to examine the real-world applications. Greater EV range requires bigger batteries, which increases cost, recharging time and possibly the overall carbon footprint of the vehicle. Also, the vehicle requires additional space within the vehicle to house a bigger battery. Toyota needs to determine what customers expect from the vehicles and whether the cost-benefit equation is market competitive. There is a perception that Toyota is not as far along with its PHV program as some of the recent start-up companies in the U.S. that are doing PHV conversions (with Prius) with Lithium-ion batteries. Why is Toyota so far behind? Toyota’s PHV program is moving forward at a pace that must address a myriad issues that are not necessary for these conversion companies. Toyota has a huge obligation to its customers’ expectations. It is more important to be best-in-market than it is to be first-to-market. Historically, Toyota has underpromised & overdelivered. Toyota expects to be highly competitive in all areas of advanced technology vehicles. Why is Toyota so conservative in its approach to PHVs? Toyota believes that PHVs can be part of a solution to climate change and for energy security, • for certain customers, • in certain geographic areas, • with certain grid-mixes, • with certain drive-cycles, • and with access to charging. There will be an important role for PHVs, but it will not be in high volume until there are significant improvements in overall battery performance…and battery cost reduction. Why is Toyota using lithium-ion batteries in the Prius Plug-in Hybrid Vehicle, but not in the 2010 Prius? Lithium-ion batteries have greater energy density than nickel-metal hydride batteries, i.e. more energy can be stored with battery size intact. In order to increase the distances driven under electrical power, Toyota is using lithium-ion batteries in the Prius Plug-in Hybrid Vehicle. In conventional hybrid vehicles Toyota will continue to use nickel-metal hydride batteries in the near term. The technology has proved its value over twelve years of mass production and is extremely reliable. In the future, given cost reductions, lithium-ion batteries could be considered for conventional hybrids. • Ni-MH batteries are appropriate for regular hybrids (cost, quality, reliability). • Lithium-Ion batteries: higher capacity and reduced size/weight, but not yet ready for market (cost, reliability) What’s the life expectancy of the lithium-ion batteries? The batteries are built to last for the life of the vehicle. What are the pros and cons with the different kinds of batteries? Battery Types - Overview Type Lead Acid Alkaline Nickel Metal Hydride Lithium-ion & Lithium Polymer +
    • Cheap
    • Powerful
    • Rechargeable
    • High power capability
    • Popular
    • Safe for users
    • Long shelf life
    • High amp-hours when compared to an equivalent rechargeable
    • Rechargeable
    • High power density
    • Higher power capability than alkaline
    • Rechargeable
    • Ultra-light
    • High cell voltage
    • High power capability
    • High power density
    --
    • Heavy
    • Large
    • Toxic
    • Non-rechargeable
    • Low capability
    • Bad for the environment
    • Self-discharge quickly
    • More expensive than NiCds and alkaline
    • Expensive
    • Delicate
    • Require special circuitry for charging
    What is Toyota’s position on some people’s claims that advanced lithium ion batteries for automotive applications will cost less than $1000 per kWh…perhaps lower than $500 per kWh? In summer 2009, Toyota was asked to testify in front of a committee at the National Academy of Science in Washington, D.C., on the current state of plug-in technology, which of course included a discussion on advanced batteries. That testimony is a matter of public record and has been reported on in the media. During that testimony a Toyota representative was asked Toyota’s opinion on current battery costs and how significantly it might be reduced. What Toyota said then was that the very rough estimate was approximately $1200 per KWH for a complete pack including instrumentation and ventilation systems…and that efficiencies in scale alone will not create major cost reductions in the near term.* Significant reductions in cost will require major technological breakthroughs.** (* Shinichi Abe, NAS testimony) (**EVP Takimoto, 2009 NAIAS) What is the development cost for the Prius PHV? This technology requires a significant investment that is, of course, proprietary. What specific criteria will Toyota evaluate during the PHV demonstration program? Toyota is still defining specific measurement criteria and how the data will be aggregated. Toyota’s PHV demonstration program will ensure that the vehicles are driven under a variety of driving conditions and scenarios to capture as much real-world driving data as possible. How will Toyota collect evaluation data? Specifics for data collection are still under development and will be announced at a later date. How long will the PHV demonstration program last? Program termination dates will vary and are being worked out with each partner individually. What is your reasoning behind the geographic placement of these vehicles? The vehicles are being strategically clustered in locations where the vehicles can be supported locally from a service and operations standpoint and Toyota can support localized education and communication opportunities. Vehicles are slated for placement in northern and southern California, Washington D.C., New York, Boulder, Colorado, Portland, Oregon and Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. When will Toyota announce the names of the PHV demonstration program partners? Toyota has announced the placement of 10 vehicles with Xcel Energy’s SmartGridCity program in Boulder, CO and has announced partnerships with Qualcomm, Silicon Valley Leadership Group, Southern California Air Quality Management District, University of California, Berkeley, University of Colorado, and Portland State University. Additional partners will be announced at a later date. What features vary on the Prius PHV demo vehicle versus the 2010 Prius? The Prius PHV features the same body as the Prius but has a few distinct differences. • A battery charger lid that covers the battery charger inlet has been added at the driver’s side front fender. This lid includes a unique emblem. • The outer mirrors, outside door handles, and back door have been accented with an exclusive high-intensity silver coating. • A unique emblem has been added to the right front fender. • An exclusive body stripe with distinct Plug-in Hybrid graphics is standard. While the PHV does not come with the solar roof available on the 2010 Prius, it does offer another option to cool your car while the vehicle is parked. The vehicle is equipped with a remotely activated AC system. While the vehicle is plugged-in just press the AC button on the vehicle’s key fob to start the AC system and either cool, or in the winter heat, your vehicle.

     
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  2. joe1347

    joe1347 Active Member

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    On sale in 2012. Seems like vaporware if they are really that far off
     
  3. kgall

    kgall Active Member

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    Re: Prius Plug-In Hybrid Vehicle (PHV) FAQ

    ". . .
    Why is the Prius PHV range so short?
    Toyota is of the belief that the smaller the battery in a PHV the better, both from a total lifecycle assessment (carbon footprint) point of view, as well as a cost point of view. Research has shown that plug-in hybrid vehicles with smaller batteries, charged frequently (every 20 miles or less) with average U.S. electricity produce less green house gas emissions than conventional hybrid vehicles. (according to a 2009 Carnegie Melon University study). And as battery size increases, so does the battery cost resulting in higher overall vehicle cost.
    . . .
    How will plugging in the Prius PHV at home affect the electric bill?
    The PHV draws approximately one kilowatt per hour and takes approximately three hours to charge. The effect on the bill also will be determined by how often the vehicle is charged. Since electricity rates vary greatly depending on location and utility company, Toyota cannot determine an exact cost."


    Sometimes I wonder why Toyota, which generally has high quality cars, devotes so little to technical editing--or other editing. This press release shows many of the same problems as the Prius Owner's Manual.

    "One kilowatt per hour"? Don't they mean one kilowatt-hour per hour?

    "the smaller the battery in a PHV the better"--This may be possible (though I kind of thought that up to a certain point, the idea was to get as much power from the plug as reasonably possible), but the whole explanation in that paragraph completely confuses me.


    Am I crazy on either of these? And if I'm not, what are they really trying to say in that paragraph about wanting small batteries in PHVs?
     
  4. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Re: Prius Plug-In Hybrid Vehicle (PHV) FAQ

    They should just say the battery pack charges at the rate of 1kw. It isn't allowed to fully deplete so it so it will fully charge in about 3 hours and use about 3kwh of electricity. If you do this every day your bill will go up about 90kwh a month.


    In some sense this it true. Especially for the Japanese market where drivers don't travel far. The bigger the battery pack, the more the added cost and weight. The cost is somewhat subsidized by the US government. The car must be designed for the additional weight.

    My guess is toyota is only doing this to get some experience with it. If lithium batteries do come down in price they will design the 2015 prius with longer range. Toyota has a lead in pure hybrid vehicles and is majority owner of panasonic ev which leads in Nimh batteries. The playing field is much more level when it comes to plug in vehicles.
     
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  5. gbbari

    gbbari Junior Member

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    Re: Prius Plug-In Hybrid Vehicle (PHV) FAQ

    No, apparently their technical editing is good. They correctly stated a load rate ("draws") for electrical power usage, whereas your suggestion is more awkward. A kwH is a unit of power usage to be multiplied by time to arrive at total electric power usage. Toyota could have stated that charging the PHV uses approximately 3kwH of electricity. Customers can then simply multiply that amount by their supplier's rate to get total cost per charge.
     
  6. TonyPSchaefer

    TonyPSchaefer Your Friendly Moderator
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  7. DeadPhish

    DeadPhish Senior Member

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  8. Duffer

    Duffer Member

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    Yes siree, and the foot dragging continues... Toyota gets a lead and they sit on it. Honda plays idiot. GM ran in the wrong direction for too long. Ford may be moving in the right direction. We are moving toward green, but not by leaps and bounds, just milling around and looking to see what others are doing.
     
  9. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    A lot of people don't remember that Prius was "data collected" in the Japan from 1997 to 2000. It came to US as 2001 model.

    Toyota is taking the same approach with PHV Prius but the data collection is world wide this time.

    Good luck to Nissan and GM with their approach. The risk is highest for Nissan since they are planning to produce a lot more than the Volt. Nissan are now in the position how long they should warrant the Leaf. They announced the price but not the warranty, betting that most will want to lease. $21k electric car that last only 5 years is a very expensive. Not only that, it can ruin the image of the entire EV industry.
     
  10. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    I do !!!

    Reading about those test & review experiences prior to the US rollout was very exciting. Then finding out how Toyota took that feedback to build the next model for sale in late 2000 here was very almost surreal. To think, that was the dawn of a new age. Boy was I naive. I had no idea so many would resist change so fiercely. What the heck!

    Anywho, to those of you that feel just like we did over 10 years ago, enjoy the experience. Now, the rest of the industry is really going to have a difficult time maintaining that status quo they have fought so hard for... and you can witness it firsthand.
    .
     
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  11. joe1347

    joe1347 Active Member

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