1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Selfish green

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by Tom183, Apr 23, 2010.

  1. Tom183

    Tom183 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    652
    65
    0
    Location:
    Maine
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    Now that Earth Day is over and we're done patting ourselves on the back for all the little things we're doing which we believe actually make a difference, I figure a little perspective is in order.

    When we "go green", are we really doing the best thing for the planet? Sure, if everyone switched to flourescents (like WE have, harumph), we could reduce overall consumption considerably - but beyond that, are we really putting our "green" dollars to effective use, or are we just making ourselves look good?

    Case in point:
    Let's say I have an average house and in my particular region I use an average amount of fossil fuel for heating annually. Is it better for the environment for me to put a few thousand dollars into insulation and other heating-related projects which will reduce my fossil fuel usage, or is it better for the environment overall if those few thousand dollars go into an older, below-average home which has much higher heating costs and would see a much greater reduction in CO2 emissions? What if my house is above-average already, in which case the reductions I would achieve would be relatively small?

    Another example (and this has been marginally discussed on other threads):
    Is it better for me to spend $30,000 for a roof-mounted PV array, or to invest that same amount in large-scale solar/wind projects which would provide much greater output per $ spent?

    Mull those over for a while, and you'll probably think of some other examples. And before you say "well, if everyone did all the things I'm doing", you should first make a list of all the things you're ACTUALLY doing and measure how much they actually help. Then remember that most people don't have a lot of capital to work with (and can't borrow it either), and ask yourself, bang-for-buck, which is the better course for the environment overall?


    Then there's this article: http://www.newsweek.com/id/236722
    Which states very convincingly that the only substantive environmental changes in the past 50 years were all the result of legislation. Acid rain, ozone hole, toxic rivers - these were NOT fixed by individuals choosing not to use CFC's or refusing to use dirty coal plants for electricity. They were fixed by LAW.

    Let that sink in for a minute. Then ask yourself whether you should spend money spray-foaming your attic to take it from R-50 to R-60 or replacing your 85% efficiency furnace with a 92% one so that you have something to talk about at dinner parties, or if you should be investing that money in large-scale clean electricity generation projects, or making donations to environmental groups who lobby for real, substantive legislative action.

    Think about it. Are you green to the core, or just on the outside layer you show to the world?
     
  2. Tom183

    Tom183 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    652
    65
    0
    Location:
    Maine
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    Or as Thomas Friedman says it, "It's not a (green) revolution until someone gets hurt".

    Are you ready to hurt?
     
  3. spiderman

    spiderman wretched

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2009
    7,543
    1,558
    0
    Location:
    Alaska
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    II
    Any well thought out, well planned, well debated plan is worth a shot. Any viable plan will work on its own merits. No reason for anyone to get "hurt".
     
  4. Tom183

    Tom183 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    652
    65
    0
    Location:
    Maine
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    That's a fallacy, and a convenient excuse to sit on one's nice person... How many "viable" plans do you know of? And if they are truly viable, why aren't they already being done? And what makes you think the no-cost options will be enough by themselves?

    It WILL hurt, compared to the devastating but very inexpensive way we do things today. It likely won't hurt as much as the doom-sayers are predicting (fixing acid rain ended up being 1/4th the projected cost and didn't exactly "destroy the economy"), but it won't be free.

    That's why I think it's important to look at where we put our "green dollars", and spend them wisely. If we blow them all on things that are sexy/interesting (like PV and electric bikes) instead of the things that are boring but far more cost-effective (like insulation/caulking and large-scale renewable power), we're wasting our money.

    We also need to look at who gets hurt if we DON'T do anything (or don't do enough, either by blowing our money on things which are less cost-effective, or only doing the no-cost things). Future generations, the poor, coastal communities - they will be hit very hard indeed.

    Then we need to decide if we should take some pain ourselves, now, by putting our money where our mouths are and putting it where it does the most good, rather than leaving the entire burden on those other groups. If we only spend on ourselves, it won't be nearly as effective.

    But since a lot of people will prefer to avoid personal pain in the short run and keep a few bucks in their own pocket today rather than do something which would help everyone down the road, legislation may end up being the only "viable" solution.
     
  5. spiderman

    spiderman wretched

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2009
    7,543
    1,558
    0
    Location:
    Alaska
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    II
    You are right that economics is just a part of it, the big picture needs to be kept in mind.
    One "viable" project I like to think of (smaller scale) is the hydroelectric project(s) in my home town. Built about 20 years ago, when fuel costs were relatively low, it was an expensive project. But with Federal, State and local funds, they moved forward with it. Very successful project in terms of cost and benefit (in the long term). It just made sense even though the up front costs were considerable (it hurt).
    It is kind of funny, they want to build a hydroproject here in South Central Alaska that would significantly reduce our needs on oil and nat gas but the environmental groups are blocking the way. Damned if you do, Damned if you don't. Love the pun.
     
  6. jdcollins5

    jdcollins5 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2009
    5,131
    1,338
    0
    Location:
    Wilmington, NC
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    One question that I have about green is the fact that we have raised the environmental emission standards to the point that we have forced a lot of our manufacturing industries off our shores to places like China and Mexico who have much lower environmental standards.

    But we all like the cheap products that are made in these countries. Haven't we just moved the emissions off of our shores? Are we being hypocritically "green"?
     
  7. Tom183

    Tom183 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    652
    65
    0
    Location:
    Maine
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III

    Short answer: yes. By not applying the same standards to imported goods (be it environmental or labor regulations), we're giving those companies a "blank check" to pollute elsewhere. And by purchasing those goods, we are saying it's OK.

    But as we have seen from the big cloud over China which sometimes has impacts all the way across the Pacific ocean in California, "nimby" doesn't apply - the entire world is everyone's backyard.

    Most people will say that they're just wasting their money by buying "cleaner" goods, because so many people buy the cheaper stuff anyway. And that's why legislation works better than voluntary compliance or individual choice. Slavery wasn't ended by voluntary compliance...
     
    1 person likes this.
  8. Tom183

    Tom183 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    652
    65
    0
    Location:
    Maine
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    You can't get something for nothing - life is choices.

    But another way of looking at that particular situation is, would that money be better spent on efficiency improvements instead, which wouldn't require damming a river?

    This is what I mean by spending green dollars wisely. I would rather have hydro than coal, but those aren't the only options. And just because we're building different power sources doesn't mean we can think them through a little.
     
  9. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    14,487
    1,518
    0
    Location:
    Spokane, WA
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Tom: You make some excellent points. I'll add another that hits close to home: Prius drivers believe we're being "green" by driving a car that gets 45 to 50 mpg (or 60 in the rare case where conditions are ideal). But we're still burning gasoline. (I mostly drive the EV, but I still drive the Prius for road trips.) Truly being green would involve changing our lifestyles so that we didn't need to drive a car at all. :behindsofa:

    Take Darell, for example: Even his electric car is a back-up mode of transportation for him, as he cycles to work. A Prius looks green beside a Hummer, but it looks pretty brown beside a velomobile.

    Disclosure: I am more brown than most of the folks I know: I drive an EV while they drive SUVs, but I travel by commercial airlines, which probably eats up all my green and poops it out pure brown. :(
     
  10. Tom183

    Tom183 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    652
    65
    0
    Location:
    Maine
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    Yes, and another way of looking at this is:

    Which is better for the environment: 1 million Priuses, or higher CAFE standards for all vehicles? I think that clarifies the whole self-improvement vs legislation context.

    Look at it this way: the environment is like the Titanic, heading into iceberg territory. Your choices are three:
    1) keep dancing in the ballroom, either believing the ship is "unsinkable" or because you've given up.
    2) build your own private lifeboat.
    3) try to persuade the captain to turn slow down and turn south.

    Don't tell yourself you're "doing your part" simply by donning a life jacket and encouraging others to do the same...
     
  11. Darwood

    Darwood Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    5,259
    268
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    I keep seeing this point lately that the little things don't do squat and that only the top down big changes work.
    However, if not for the momentum building (such as early adopters of the Prius) there is NO movement to get the systematic change accepted. It has to start from a seed and grow to a tipping point where it gets reflected in the system as a whole.

    Making a point to the dinasaurs at the big 3 is one of the reasons I originally went for a Prius back in 05. (How impressed I've been with it is why we bought a 2nd one). Now it's a popular car and soon all the car makers are going to try and get in on the game of sticking it to OPEC as much as possible (because of BOTH consumer interest as well as systematic changes like CAFE). I'd like to think that I contributed to that end as opposed to thinking I am personally SOOOO green. Like Daniel, I don't really see myself that way.

    You can't get major change through the system until the system is pressured into it by a growing momentum towards it. And that momentum starts with little people doing the little things.
     
    2 people like this.
  12. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    18,058
    3,074
    7
    Location:
    Northern Michigan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    I'm not even green on the outside layer. I make green choices when they are easy or obvious, but I have no pretensions about being a green crusader.

    Tom
     
  13. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2004
    14,487
    1,518
    0
    Location:
    Spokane, WA
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    I agree that individuals can make choices that make a difference. But I also agree that legislation and government action are essential. We need both. Problem is, right now we have neither. Building/buying Priuses as a solution to the oil and climate crises is putting a bandage on a cancer. It accomplishes nothing. It's just like the parable that I apply to the nation as a whole:

    We're in a canoe, paddling hard downriver, towards a thousand-foot waterfall. Conservatives are shouting "Stay the course! Keep paddling! Harder, harder!" Meanwhile the liberals and (to adapt my analogy to the present thread) Prius owners, are saying, "Hey, there's a waterfall up ahead. Let's paddle towards it just a little bit slower."

    Driving a Prius is like paddling toward the waterfall just a little bit slower than the SUV drivers are doing.

    Moving to a very small house, walking distance or cycling distance from work, is like stopping paddling. Then you're just drifting toward the waterfall.

    The world is going to hell in a handbasket unless we can start paddling upstream away from the waterfall. That means taking carbon out of the atmosphere, rather than just slowing the rate we put it in. We need to STOP all use of fossil fuels, and replant the forests and clean up the oceans so plankton can grow again, in order to begin removing the carbon we've spent the last hundred years dumping into the atmosphere like there was no tomorrow (a self-fulfilling prophesy in this case).

    Many of us want to save the world, as long as we don't have to give up our greedy and wasteful life style. But as long as I'm not willing to change, I certainly cannot expect you to, so the human race is screwed.

    (The Earth will be fine. It will keep on keeping on, changing, evolving new species to replace the ones --like us-- that kill themselves off.)
     
  14. Tom183

    Tom183 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    652
    65
    0
    Location:
    Maine
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III

    If you think buying a Prius had any effect on the Big 3, you're sadly mistaken. They saw $150/barrel oil and a Democratic majority in congress, and didn't have to be geniuses to see that CAFE standards would change sooner rather than later. The Volt's "230mpg" is just a convenient way to distort the curve so that they will be allowed to sell more of their big-profit vehicles: SUV's.

    Buying a Prius clearly falls into the "building your own private lifeboat" category - it benefits you (and me) specifically, more than it benefits the environment as a whole. The $3000 surcharge we paid vs a comparable non-hybrid definitely would have been better spent in other ways. Think about it: 100,000 Priuses x $3000 = $300 million. That's a lot of influence in Washington, and a lot of advertising dollars to use getting a message across.

    Slavery didn't end because abolishonists "planted seeds" or "sent a message" by personally boycotting southern cotton - they made the issue visible and got their message out, and persuaded people to vote against pro-slavery candidates. Civil rights was the same thing - it didn't end because african-americans boycotted whites-only businesses, they marched on Washington and got vocal.

    Voting your dollars really isn't nearly as effective as using your dollars to affect votes. Just ask the Big 3.
     
  15. Tom183

    Tom183 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    652
    65
    0
    Location:
    Maine
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    True enough - but everyone else is still paddling, and we're all in the same canoe...

    What I'm saying is that we need to change "being green" from something a few of us do individually (with negligable effect overall), into doing things that will affect everyone and have real-world impact. In short, we need to look beyond ourselves and find ways to influence the big picture - to use our "green dollars" in more effective ways than simply benefitting ourselves directly. And that by doing so, we will get far more bang for the buck from our money.
     
  16. Darwood

    Darwood Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2005
    5,259
    268
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    I don't think that's entirely true. When it came out it they laughed about it and thought it would flop. Then (and still now) they attacked it. But looking forward, it's success is clearly making them rethink the viablility of less gluttonous vehicles. It's success will ensure they do produce the Volt. The Hummer is dead, SUV's are getting replaced by smaller crossover SUV's. Yes, the difference is subtle, but it IS a shift in the offerrings in response to what the market is dictating. I don't think anybody expected a sudden flip flop, but the momentum is shifting towards efficiency. It's our job as consumers to continue to support the products that consume the least resources that our individual needs require.


    "they made the issue visible and got their message out, and persuaded people to vote against pro-slavery candidates. Civil rights was the same thing - it didn't end because african-americans boycotted whites-only businesses, they marched on Washington and got vocal."

    Who are they? They are individuals that pursued their beliefs until the ideas where accepted enough to effect change on a national level. Without the first trailblazers, nothings happens.
    And without the first Prius adopters, we would be using much more oil today then we are. Riding bikes is not feasable to many people like myself. I can't put my 2 young kids on the back of a bike on my way to work. Nor does a ZAP that can't go on the highway meet my needs. To say that the shift in products would have happened without early adopters seems disengeniuos.
     
    2 people like this.
  17. Tom183

    Tom183 New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2009
    652
    65
    0
    Location:
    Maine
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    It would have - because of oil price spikes and new CAFE standards, not because of the "pioneers" who think they are changing attitudes by wearing eco-consciousness like designer clothing. That kind of passive approach is why gay marriage advocates have had so many setbacks recently - they were doing far better 30 years ago when they were willing to take a stand and get in everyone's face.

    You may hate the tea partiers and think they are totally wrong about most things (they are), but they definitely have the process right - and are having impacts far beyond their numbers.

    So ask yourself, why do people with such "controversial" (to put it nicely) ideas have such a disproportionate impact, when those of us who know the environment is going to hell in a handbasket (a statement most people agree with) have almost no impact at all?

    I think it's because we spend our efforts purchasing "green" items to display how we're "doing our part", rather than putting our money and our mouths where they could have much larger and broader impacts. We would rather show off the gadgets we bought which allow us to escape the system, rather than try to fix the system itself.
     
  18. a_gray_prius

    a_gray_prius Rare Non-Old-Blowhard Priuschat Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2008
    2,927
    782
    0
    Location:
    IL
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Some of us have been walking/biking to work going on 10 years....just saying.

    Come to think of it, I think the number of times I've walked/biked to work outnumbers the number of times I've driven by 10-1. None of your electric-PHEV-runs-on-lollipops-and-rainbows-mobiles can touch that.
     
  19. rpatterman

    rpatterman Thinking Progressive

    Joined:
    May 21, 2008
    756
    226
    0
    Location:
    Boulder, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    II
    I did not buy a Prius as a statement for people to see how green I am, but as support for a company willing to push the fuel efficiency limits.
    If no one had bought the Prius all the auto makers could claim there was no market for alternative vehicles, but individually all of the one million people that did buy a Prius over the last 10 years sent a message to all auto makers.

    Some one better at math than me could figure up the individual impact of a lifetime of reducing, reusing and recycling. No way you will convince me that the impact of a lifetime of good choices is insignificant.
     
    3 people like this.
  20. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    6,257
    4,257
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    Interesting position. However, I don't buy into it. Not saying you are wrong, just that you haven't convinced me you are right.
    A. If I spend an extra $3000 to buy a prius (just assuming your number is correct) I KNOW that I am contributing to less CO2 than if I kept driving my 26mpg (average) vehicle. If I donate it to a cause that is lobbying for changes in legislation, it MAY do some good, and it MAY make no difference.
    B. How much less CO2 and other pollutants are being pumped into the air due to 100,000 Prius being used instead of the previous vehicles those 100,000 drivers were driving?

    So to make your argument convincing, you need to show the likelihood of success of lobbying with $300 Million AND the payoff in CO2 and pollutants saved by said legislation vs 100,000 Prius.

    Your dismissal of individual efforts is, in my mind, incorrect.
    Your point about the most 'bang for your buck' is a very good one and should be kept in mind.
    As others have stated, both individual and government level improvements, in my opinion, are important.
     
    3 people like this.