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Peter, Paul, and circumcision.

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by daniel, Apr 29, 2010.

  1. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    In the New testament, Jesus names Peter as his successor to the leadership of his Church. Peter thus becomes the person who has the authority to settle disputes after Jesus's death. Not merely authority, but if you believe that Jesus was the Christ, then Peter has divine authority.

    Jesus was a Jew, and all his followers in his lifetime were Jews, including all the Disciples and the Apostles. Jesus lived as a Jew, observing Jewish law. He even stated that he was not here to change the law.

    Immediately after his death, however, there arose a dispute over whether one had to be a Jew in order to be a Christian. There were Jews, including Peter, who said Yes to that question: before a person could be baptized as a Christian, they had to be a Jew, and if they were not already a Jew they had to convert to Judaism and obey all the Jewish religious laws. This meant that an adult man, or a boy, who was not already circumcised, had to get circumcised in order to become a Christian.

    Paul, who was more savvy as an organizer and evangelist than Peter, understood that he would get few if any converts among non-Jews if they had to get circumcised, no matter how great their faith. A man who can face a hungry lion without fear will quail at the thought of allowing his penis to be sliced with a sharp knife! So Paul took the position that a Gentile could become a Christian without first becoming a Jew. He was very successful.

    Eventually, the growing church had to come to grips with the question. Peter argued the affirmative while Paul argued the negative, and the church sided with Paul.

    But Peter was the church leader, personally appointed by Jesus himself, and if you believe that Jesus was the Christ, then Peter was appointed by god.

    Thus, in siding with Paul (the effective organizer) rather than Peter (god's own appointed leader of the church) the Christian Church renounced its own god and became a heretic church virtually at its very inception. The act of rejecting its rightful leader might explain why it has gone so wrong throughout its entire history.
     
  2. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    Don't forget Mary. In some countries, even today, female circumcision still happens. Genital mutilation of either gender is just plain evil.
     
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  3. amm0bob

    amm0bob Permanently Junior...

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    As for employment for moyels that got reduced with this new religion... they have always advocated for the continued removal of the aforeskinned to ensure the new members knew just how closely the almighty was reaching when you messed up...

    And it reduced infections of course.
     
  4. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    It would seem to me to be 1900 years too late to worry all that much about this.

    If I was asked, I would say Jesus himself first realized he would have believers out side Judaism in the episode of the Canaanite woman. (Matthew 15:21 to 28 and Mark 7:24 to 30 are two versions of it, neither show that Jesus handled it all that well, but he grew to realize he had to deal with people of other nations)

    All you have to believe is that the non Jewish Christians get the crumbs, and that Paul was a 'crummy' guy.
     
  5. spiderman

    spiderman wretched

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    Just curious, was this just a general observation you made after reading the Holy Bible, or perhaps something someone wrote, or speculation, or what? Sources?
    Thanks,
     
  6. KK6PD

    KK6PD _ . _ . / _ _ . _

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    Brischeese on a Ritz....I'll pass!
     
  7. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i believe peter came around after God gave him the vision of the unclean animals and told him to eat.
     
  8. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    The composition of the post is my own. Any time I quote someone else I put it in quotes or a quote box and cite the author.

    I am listening to a Teaching Company course on the history of the Catholic Church. The disagreement between Peter and Paul, and within the early Christian community generally, over the question of conversion (must one be a Jew before becoming a Christian?) was mentioned. Of course, it is general knowledge that the Ebionites were Christians who continued to practice the Jewish religion, believed you had to be a Jew before you could be a Christian, and believed that Jesus was not god, but was adopted by god at his baptism. Their view was rejected by the Pauline Christians and others.

    What I had not known previously, and which inspired my post, was that Peter, who was appointed by Jesus to be his successor, believed that one had to be a Jew in order to be a Christian, and this included the need to be circumcised.

    On the opposite end of the spectrum from the Ebionites, were the Marcionites, who believed that Jesus was not a man at all, but a pure spirit pretending to be a man. They believed there were two gods: the god of the Old Testament created the material world, but the material world was evil; while the god of the New Testament created spirit; and that by pretending to be a man, and pretending to be crucified, Jesus tricked the evil creator of the world into releasing mankind from the burden of original sin. You can learn of these and much more in the Teaching Company course on Lost Christianities.

    The Teaching Company

    The History of the Catholic Church


    Lost Christianities
     
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  9. spiderman

    spiderman wretched

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    Interesting... so the course pointed out that Peter as Jesus' successor? Was there a reference to this (Scripture or otherwise)? Forgive me for not reading through the course material myself.
    Thanks,
     
  10. Rae Vynn

    Rae Vynn Artist In Residence

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    Be aware, also, that of the many, many, many writings and teachings of the early disciples and followers, only a select few were picked by Constantine's Nicean council, to craft this new religion into the tool he desired to control the populace.

    Glad you're having fun, Daniel. :)
     
  11. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Jesus says to Peter, "Thou art Peter [rock] and upon this rock I found my church." This is widely interpreted by Christians to mean that Peter was Jesus's chosen successor. On the other hand, we only have Paul's word that the holy spirit descended upon him. But Paul was a mover and shaker, with the savvy to create a cult of personality around the dead preacher, and he wrested control of the nascent church away from Peter.
     
  12. hyo silver

    hyo silver Awaaaaay

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    One of the saddest lessons of history is that things haven't really changed much.
     
  13. spiderman

    spiderman wretched

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    "Many writings"? I am only aware of a few like the book of Thomas and Mary Magdalene. Perhaps you could name some other?
     
  14. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    You, sir, have never dated a woman with braces.

    With that lesson (Painfully) learned, I will happily try to pet a hungry lion
     
  15. markderail

    markderail I do 45 mins @ 3200 PSI

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    Circumcision is the Jewish equivalent rite of baptism, to become the people of God. Jews do not baptize, what John the Baptist did to Jews, before Jesus and to Jesus, was a purification rite, by one of the tribes of Jews living in the desert.

    Jews need to be purified before attending the synagogue. Jesus, pure of heart, being baptized, purifies all of Man of the Original Sin. (John the Baptist did not want to 'clean' Jesus, he recognized the Messiah and said it should be the other way around. Jesus said to John it was necessary to accomplish the written prophesy.)

    Jesus specifically told the apostles to go forth and baptize all of Man - Jews included. Many Jews did convert to Christianity - probably the poor ones.

    So baptism is the Christian rite initiation into the people of God. Circumcision is simply a carried over tradition, that converted Jews wanted to keep.

    Never did Jesus talk about Jewish rites other than to discredit. In ancient scripture, not talking about something is just as important as talking about it. One way of thinking is that if it's not mentioned, then the current practice should continue, as it was not specifically discredited.

    However, Paul was right that a non-Jew need not be circumcised, if it is not part of their tradition, and Jews converting to Christianity - the mothers & fathers wanting to continue the tradition - are correct in continuing it because it wasn't discredited by Jesus. (like for example stoning to death for adultery)

    My personal point-of-view on the matter, is that traditions and dogma are separate and each has their meaning, both are important.

    For example, fervent Greek Orthodox Catholics will keep the 'Evil Eye' ward close to them, or in their car, to ward off evil spirits. Superstition - but it is tradition - with a better safe than sorry attitude.

    Circumcision falls in the same category.

    We can assume Jesus was circumcised and growing up, he saw the ritual many times. None of the gospels talk about it, meaning it was accepted.

    This is a fascinating topic - I'll probably do one of my next projects on this.

    I'm currently studying towards a bachelor's in theology and becoming a deacon in the Roman Catholic Church.

    (despite all the controversy, yes, and I'm married with two grown kids, completely sane)
     
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  16. spiderman

    spiderman wretched

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    OK. I didn't realize that this passage was "widely interpreted" that way. The way I interpret the passage (and I am in no way a Bible scholar tho I did read through the New Testament last year), is that Peter (and the rest of the disciples) and the knowledge that Jesus is the Son of God (Matthew 16:16) is the foundation of the Church (followers, not a physical building, etc.).
    Jesus is sitting at the right hand of God in heaven, he does not need a "successor". Jesus is the Head of the Church for now and ever more. He also sent the Holy Spirit to be (indwell) with the disciples.
     
  17. markderail

    markderail I do 45 mins @ 3200 PSI

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    (Peter called forth to become the Church leader)

    It's in John 21 - the miracle of catching many fish, and subsequent feast.

    Jesus asks Peter three times if he loves him. Offsetting the three times Peter had renounced knowing Jesus.

    It is quite clear in John's gospel that Jesus wants Peter to be the leader of his flock, and that Peter must follow him.
     
  18. Rokeby

    Rokeby Member

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    This may not be germain to this discussion...

    Is calling a penis a "peter" connected to St. Peter?

    (And while we're in this deep, Where from comes the slang "dick?")

    Edit: Ok, on "dick;" I now recall it is connected with a famous
    English hangman first name Richard, the familiar being Dick, and
    the fact that hanged men sometimes get an erection.
     
  19. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Let's see, just a few that come to mind: The Gnostic Gospels, of which there are several, the Proto-Gospel of Peter (probably not written by the Disciple Peter, but definitely an early Christian writing) the numerous writings of the Ebionites and of Marcion and his followers... I probably would not use as many "many"s as Rene, but there are a number of early Christian writings that did not make it into the New testament canon because they expressed theologies rejected by the dominant faction.

    See the Lost Christianities course cited above for some fascinating history of the first few centuries of Christianity. The variety of beliefs about god and Jesus was very wide. Eventually Pauline teachings won out, and everyone else was burned at the stake. More Christians were killed by other Christians than were killed by the Romans.

    As for Jesus still being the leader of the Church, that's kind of awkward, since he is not here to settle disputes. And if ten people pray to him for an answer, they'll get ten different answers.

    Circumcision is an issue only because it might have been the biggest obstacle to the conversion of gentiles to Judaism. The root issue is whether you can be a Christian without first being a Jew. Jesus did not speak of it, but he was not in the business of converting anyone. He was preaching an apocalyptic vision of the imminent end of the world, and a recipe for salvation. He was a Jew and he preached to Jews. All his followers and disciples were Jews.

    Christianity is an invention of Paul, who threw out much of what Jesus taught and replaced it with a cult of personality, now called Christianity. Jesus taught that you had to do certain things to be saved: Love your neighbor as yourself, repent your sins, give your wealth to the poor, etc., all of them actions and lifestyle choices. Paul taught that none of that mattered, but that instead what you had to do was believe that Jesus was god. No actions, just belief.

    Pauline Christianity was the first religion in the world to place importance on belief. Greek and Roman paganism, by contrast, required that you practice certain rituals. Belief had nothing to do with it. Nowadays "works vs. faith" is a big controversy among Christians, with Protestants leaning more toward faith, and Evangelical Protestants insisting on faith alone; while Catholics place more emphasis on works.

    But the point of my post was that Peter (Jesus's hand-picked leader of the Church) said that you must become a Jew before you can be a Christian, while Paul (who persecuted Christians before he decided to jump the fence) said you did not. And the Church mutinied against Peter and sided with Paul.
     
  20. jdcollins5

    jdcollins5 Senior Member

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    It is pretty amazing to me that people have been trying to put all kinds of different spins on the interpretation of the Bible and to discredit every piece and part of it. This has been going on for 2000 years now.

    This spin here reminds me almost of the media spin on the Toyota SUA issue.

    People can take a limited number of recorded facts and create numereous interpretations. It is really nice to live in a country where anyone can express his opinion on any religion.

    I would think that anyone can attempt to dig up any dirt they want on most any religion if they look hard enough and twist the known facts the way they like.