1st oil change at 5k or 10k?

Well, he is from New York, after all. They know.

 

What's your take on the original question, josh2008 aka Toyota Technician&Prius Owner?

 

NOt sure where you get the idea that oil specifications in the EU are light years beyond the crap API/SAE specs here in North America. All oils here are mostly made by Mobile 1 (which you guys mostly use). If we mostly use the same oil I don't see how specification has any significance in this argument.

"The EU market 2004-2009 Prius owner manual " hmm you are in the wrong forum then mate. We are talking about Prius 3 not Prius 2. If you want to inform about Prius 3 then please refer to the right manual becuase mine says recommended specifically 0W-20.

 

Funny I didn't pick up this post before.

"i have seen many of them get well over 200,000 miles with no engine wear doing the long oil changes." LOL You are talking out your behind. Cloud 10? No engine wear? Right.

Like I said please change at any oil intervals you please. But since you believe there are no such a thing as engine wear especially GM cars maybe you should consider their cars in the future.

When I said about manufactures pushing oil change up are all marketing I got that from dealer insiders. I won't mention how.

But even logically one can work this out. A few years ago Toyota GB dealers here uses semi syn, and all oil change is at 10k or after one year. After years of customers complaint especially fron the Lexus owners they have now changed to Fully syn. But wait the oil change interval hasn't changed yet but fully syn is supposed to run better so you would suspect that the oil change interval will be longer but no.
So you got to wonder.

But you don't have to because they all playing this game. You think they are angels?

I do agree with the fact that engine oils are quite advanced these days and you can go 10k and even a bit more beyond to even 20k with regular interval change of oil filters and keeping toping up your oil.

With stop and start and with the prius engin cut in and cut out so abrutly I prefer to give it a bit of my own TLC so I change it early.

Dearlers don't necessary know more than you do. There are a lot of things you can learn from these forums even things that dealer doesn't know themselves. You over estimate them.

 

I have posted extensively on API/SAE standards, and ACEA standards. I suggest you use the Search feature to look them up

Executive Summary: the oil companies dictate the motor oil standards in North America. This is clearly a conflict of interest, as not only does the API promote the industry, including all those oil change outlets, but they also determine what standard is acceptable for a motor

The ACEA, headquartered in Brussels, has little oil company representation on their board. The entire group is made up of car/engine makers, from light duty up to heavy duty from MAN and Iveco

Here in North America, there is NO DISTINCTION WHATSOEVER made among different quality of oil, or the expected vehicle operating environment. For example, every oil sold here, from the $1 a litre generic mystery no-name 5W-30, to the $8 a litre Mobil 1 European Car Formula 0W-40, will only have one API rating: SM

The average motorist will therefore conclude that the cheapest generic $1 litre motor oil is EXACTLY the same as the best synthetic. Is that a valid conclusion? No, of course not, but here it is

In the eyes of the API, all motor oils are exactly the same. All perform the same. All are intended for the "expected" service here in North America, which is generally 6 months or 5,000 miles

The API did try to introduce a requirement to prevent cold black sludge, a common problem in city driving especially if temps <-20 C. The oil companies complained, that standard was quickly dropped

At one time, the API assigned a "pass" mark if the oil thickened 500% in testing, now it's "only" 100% thickening

Cool temp operation can result in a phenomenon known as Gellation. This is a precursor to cold black sludge. The API allows a "pass" mark if the test results create "borderline" Gellation

The API doesn't mention ring land deposit fill, or crown land deposit fill. This eventually results in stuck rings, oil consumption, low compression, and rapid wear. The API only requires that no rings actually stick during the test.

The ACEA, on the other hand, not only VERY clearly differentiates among quality of oil, but also among expected service. Eg, ACEA A1/A5 is the "general" service oil, with expected service intervals up to 12 months or 10,000 miles. ACEA A3, B3/B4 is intended for "severe service" and very extended oil drains

In the EU the manufacturer is also free to set their own standards, such as BMW, Mercedes, VW, etc. Some of those cars offer 24 month or 30,000 mile service intervals

ACEA has specific requirements to prevent cold black sludge, ring land deposit fill, Gellation. These standards are modified to be stricter with stricter ACEA service requirements. Eg an ACEA A3, B3/B4 oil is held to a MUCH higher standard than an ACEA A1 oil.

The engine makers in the EU are also free to set their own standards above and beyond ACEA, such as VW with their oil specs, eg VW 506. They anticipate the service cycle, and formulate the oil accordingly

The Mobil 1 blended for the EU market is different than the Mobil 1 blended for the North American market. There are a handful of oils available in both markets, such as the Mobil 1 European Car Formula 0W-40 sold here

Castol also sells their made in Germany Syntec 0W-30 here

I do extensive used oil lab analysis on my vehicles, and have posted the results in this forum. There are dramatic differences contrasting the generic bulk oil minimum-spec dealership oil to a quality synthetic, both with the Prius and now with my FJ

Eg, the 4 litre V6 in my FJ, I had several "complimentary" oil changes at the dealership. According to used oil analysis, that cheap oil was used up after only 3,000 miles. I live in a climate that can go down to -40 C in winter, but reach +35 C in summer

With synthetic oil, my FJ motor returned excellent lab results even at 7,500 miles. So based on my lab analysis reports, if I intend to run my FJ motor on the cheapest generic oil - which still meets API SM - I had better change the oil and filter every 3 months or 3,000 miles

It would be most helpful if you would scan and post the relevant section of your 2010 Prius owner manual. For some reason you are unwilling to do so

European owners of the GenII Prius who posted their owner manual, revealed significant differences in viscosity requirements contrasting the North American market to the EU market. The GenII Prius in the EU had a preference for 5W-30, but a very wide viscosity range was allowed

If there is any confusion on this, such as how I specifically mentioned the GenII Prius owner manual, all I can suggest is to carefully re-read what I have posted. I read over it again, I was quite concise on the GenII Prius owner manual statement

I have not seen the EU market or the Australia market Prius maintenance section of the owner manual. So it would be very helpful if a 2010 Prius owner from one of those areas would scan and post that section, and put this issue to rest

 

1st oil change should occur at 1,000-1,500 miles. My oil filter was considerably dark when I changed mine at 1.5k. I changed again at 3,300 miles and found less material in the oil filter. I personaly recomend 1st oil change at 1-1.5k miles. However if that isn't your thing *atleast* do the first one at 5k. Having looked at customers oil filters when their first change occured at 10k I would *never* considering waiting that long. The filters are often distorted and full of gunk and the oil typically smells incredibly nasty as wel. As always I recommend using the OEM Toyota oil filter as Denso does make good oil filters. Also, I personaly use Toyota 0w20 instead of Mobil 1 as the Toyota 0w20 has a much higher count of moly (I've spent my own money doing VOA to confirm this).

 

Excellent...I'm in that range as we speak, so you've just about convinced me. I gather the only place I'll find Toyota's 0w20 is at the dealership(s).

Here's another way: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...6ffca8117&rvr_id=&ua=?*F?&itemid=310209295997 - does that look legit?

 

Yep, that's the stuff. I just buy it from our parts department since employee pricing is ~$4 a quart. Even at "msrp" (which is actually 40% over cost) since you only ned 4 quarts its not to bad.

 

I typed my zip code in the shipping cost calculator, and it's $35, so total cost is almost $8.00 per quart, much more than at the dealer ($6.85 list, I paid $5.34).

 

Besides the unusually high by several multiples of molybdenum (i.e. Mobil 10W-20 has ~80 PPM moly while Toyota 0W-20 has ~1000 PPM although these numbers bounce around by lab), the Toyota oil also has a significantly higher viscosity index (VI) than M1. Higher VI means the viscosity of the oil changes less with temperature, which is a good thing.


Rumple

 

yup, over $7 per quart with shipping for me. I think I'll just have the dealer do it...and make it known that I want the Toyota brand 0w-20 fully synthetic motor oil. I also have a $10 off $50 coupon, since I'm pretty sure this won't be counted as regularly scheduled maintenance (according to the owner's manual) and therefore won't be eligible in the free maintenance package (Premium), though it won't hurt to ask.

 

I believe the first service should be left to the manufacturer's recommended time/mileage and then I'd change the oil every 6 months due to doing short urban commutes.
Here in the UK, I have heard of vehicle owners who changed their oil too early suffering from excess oil usage later on, due to the engine not having bedded in correctly.
I only do around 8K miles a year, mainly short urban trips and until now have bought nearly new cars that were less than a year old with a years worth of mileage on, i.e. due for the first service mileage wise according to the manufacturer.
Each of the 5 vehicles I've owned over the last 12 years or so have had the first oil change at the manufacturers recommended mileage interval (i.e. at the time of purchase by me) then 6 monthly (4K for me) and none has used a drop of oil between services.

 

I have seen a 85 blazer get 280,000 miles, it didn't burn any oil, and had no parts worn out or that needed repair in the motor. It rusted out from the salt in MI. Oil was changed by gm sugestions

I have seen a 96 s-10 get 245,000 is also consumed no oil and had no worn out parts in the motor. It was sold because it needed a fuel pump and a computer. Oil was changed each time at 7,500k regular oil was used.

I have seen a 87 chevy astro reach 300,000+ miles doing 10k oil changes on regular oil. The engine was not worn out or did not need repair. The steering wheel had so much play in it you could go over a quarter of a turn before the wheels would turn any.

I was not trying to say there was no wear, but no failure or bad rings or anything that needed repair. I guess i should have said it differently

"When I said about manufactures pushing oil change up are all marketing I got that from dealer insiders. I won't mention how"

Not true i have yet heard Toyota or gm spreading the word on how their cars go longer on oil. I belive it's from advancements in how cars are made/technology. But like the guy at jiffy lube that makes 8$ an hour oil and has been trianed for 30 to 45 mins says "changes are best every 3k if you want your car to last."

"Dearlers don't necessary know more than you do. There are a lot of things you can learn from these forums even things that dealer doesn't know themselves. You over estimate them."

I don't trust dealers at all. I do have a little bit of trust in Toyota enuff that i know my car wont last any longer if i do early oil changes.

And last but not least I'm no english major, LOL

 

Excellent write up. I understood what you are saying but I really don't think the coding is that important. Firstly, most people don't know how to change their own oil and usually they take it to the dealers or private garages to get their oil changed so they don't really care or need to know the oil ratings and codes.

Secondly for those who does care and change oil regularly, they will do the oil research themselves such as asking questions or read forums such as bobtheoilguy to figure out which oil is best suited for their engine. For those who have played around with oil enough they can kinda guage what kind of oil they need and how long they would need to change their oil.

Now, as for the manual for the 2010 I don't have a scanner in the house so can't scan one for you. But I believe there is a PDF lurking aorund somewhere that you can find and believe me it says 0W-20.
I myself bought a bunch 0W-20 from Armsoil and I am quite happy with it but soon I will switch to 0W-30 just for more protection although the manual states clearly it strongly suggests 0W-20 however you can use 0W30, but the moment you have the chance to switch to the recommended oil then you should.

And since this is a Prius 3 forum I find it very little relevance that you've pointed out the recommended oil for Prius 2.

 

You've seen? Whats the oil change habbit on this car do you know? So you looked at a car that has done 280,000 miles and you assumed it changed its engine oil every 10,000 Plus miles? Besides how did you know a car hasn't done any engine change in the life time of the car? I do a lot of cars as a hobby and to help our my mechanic brother who actually works in the dealer as one of the main cheif mechanics. They do not just toytas and other cars as well and the amount of engine damange is unbelievable. So many cars has the tapping noise and so many cars has ring damange it is beyond the three exceptions you've mentioned. Besides they are not really exceptions because you don't know any history of them.

We had one guy drove a lexus and didn't change his oil at the recommended intervals and the engine was totally worn out. So bad that it would have costed the owner £10,000 just to fix it. And this is a 3 year old Lexus GS300. Later my brother bought it for cheap and bought a second hand engine and slaped it in and sold it for a good profit. Chaning oil regularly is so very important.

Again my own experience with my own car. I bought myself a Acura RL second hand. It has done its normal services from begining till 55k miles with dealer stamps. But when I got it at 67k they didn't really look after the engine and it was slightly over due on the oil change. Because of that my car shakes (Acrua RL doesn't shake at all) a little and thats due to exceessive engine wear and not enough care. Thats why with my new car I rather change the oil early than later. Even then I change it at intervals where I am happy with it.

We don't want to get to the stage that it needs repar do we? No, we want to make sure that the engine is in top condition so we change more regularly and more often.

And oil is not just about how long the milage you've done. The amount of damage is cuased by how long the oil is exposed to air as well. If you drive long milage motorway all the time is different than the stop and start driving we have here in the UK.
It is more damanging in stop and start then a constant speed on a motorway. I have a friends car that never gets driven over 10,000 miles for the period of 3 years and didn't bother to change it for 3 years either because he thought it is fine it never go over 10,000 miles driving. But now he suffers big time, his engine started to shake and he has lost half of the oil already and the oil when we drianed it for him looked so black and thick with sludge in it.

 

Gimme a friggin' Break. Show me even ONE credible proof that leaving wear particle contaminated oil in the engine EVER does anything good. What Tripe !

Engine parts wear in against each other, they do that from the friction between them. Throwing sand in the oil would be the equivalent to leaving the metal dust created by wear in the oil longer. The sooner you get that 'sand' out of a new engine the longer and better for the engine. Change the motor oil sooner, more often, and use 100% sythetic only if the care of the engine is what you demand. If ruining the engine faster and buying a replacement is your goal, by all means leave the contaminated oil in the engine for as long as the warranty will permit.

 

It was a childhoods friends dads car, it was used for his work. he bought it new. I seen it the whole life of the truck.

I understand what your saying, I'm not saying people should change the oil when they feel like it. But when toyota recomends, that way Toyota backs them with repairs if there stuck on that whole change it early or change it every 3k idea. Also my whole point is to change the oil when it is recomended, Toyota says 10k i say they should know what their talking about, Thus i will save alot of oil.

If everyone did early oil changes the us alone would use at least an extra 5,000,000,000 quarts of oil a year???? Do we really need to be doing this?

 

You do need a time out young man! My local dealer charges $70 for an oil change and look over so, not being anal about changing your oil according to 1970s standards would save $140. That thing about NASCAR engines only lasting 600mi has nothing to do with the service life that you will see from your Prius.

 

IMHO, letting the U.S. oil companies set the lubrication standards (API) is analogous to letting the fox guard the hen house.

Adding to the difficulty for U.S. consumers is a 1996 U.S. court ruling that allows the oil companies to use Grp III 'dino' oil as a synthetic base. This questionable practice is NOT allowed in Europe, which helps to explain the popularity of GC 0W-30 and Mobil 1 0W-40 which are "true" synthetics.

 

You've obviously never had any experience of engine building otherwise you would know that to get the piston rings to seal with the cylinders some wear has to take place, hence the reason for honing (ie. roughing up) the bores of the cylinders after machining, to start the process. Changing the oil too early does not allow this wear to take place and the bores glaze up (i.e. get too smooth) and dont seal with the piston rings. This results in the oil control ring allowing more oil to enter the combustion chamber and burn off, hence using more oil than the engine should.
Do you think Toyota advise you to leave the oil until the first service is one of your conspiracy theories ?
If it was to make the engine wear faster, why would they offer a 5 year/100k mile warranty FOC with 1 year/10k service intervals ?