2002 Prius 138k: Loud rumble (from ICE?) when started

That is a different claim, and one related to fuel economy. Forum member adric22 has claimed that a Gen 1 Prius can develop issues as severe as an engine failing to start if the owner follows Toyota's specifications, and fills the engine's crankcase to the level prescribed by Toyota. That's simply not true.

This is not unique to the Prius, and if you understand its engine lubrication system, you will understand why. But some folks are willing to gamble on engine longevity in search of fuel economy gains. That's their choice; what they do with their cars is their business.

 

It is even worse with the Jiffy Lub places. We've had reports of owners being charged for 5 quarts. But the chief performance problem has been poor fuel economy.

We had the oil layer in the manifold that was discovered shortly after we got our NHW11. But after making sure the oil was filled between the two marks, the layer has gone away. It was just a symptom of overfilled engine oil.

Seriously, you might consider buying a run-out NHW11. Prius ownership, something the rest of us share, makes it harder to be back-biting.

Anyone's posting should be taken with a grain of salt but I give higher ranking to owners. There is a common problem of sticky throttle plate with our older Prius that causes the car to fail to start. I had the starting problem and long suspected the sticky substance came from the oil mist that populates the manifold.

Kudos to 'adric22' who took the time to make a video about cleaning out the oil. He goes one step further, removing the air filter box, and that is something I hadn't felt the need to do to clean out the oil. Such initiative needs positive encouragement and if you have some 'technical' issues, a milder comment addressing just the technical aspects works. But to give a nearly universal challenge about "why" we post our comments:

• We own these cars
• We trust our 'lying eyes'

When you or your friendly Toyota engineers show up in our driveways and garages with tools and test instruments, we'll glady accept the free help offered. Furthermore, if you want to offer another technical point of view, that is OK too. But to challenge our motives is disruptive nonsense . . . as if the society of owners found here means nothing.

Bob Wilson

 

Let me see.. The fact that my OWN FREAKING PRIUS exhibits this conditions.

Sorry I don't have this on hand, but I have seen the official page from Toyota showing the "official" procedure for cleaning this out, which would require 2 hours of work. If you want to ask for proof, it is not worth my time to go find it. Either believe me, or don't. I don't care.

I have several friends and family who were in the business. most of them have left because it has gotten impossible to make money. Your average toyota technician earns about $30,000 a year if they are lucky, which usually involves working about 60 hours per week to earn that. My best friend is still a Toyota tech. He is a master tech with 12 years under his belt and ever certification out there. He works about 70 hours a week and brings in about $32,000 a year. It is pathetic. He's been looking for a new job for a while. The dealerships continue to cut their pay more and more. They do not get paid for any diagnostic work, which is often more labor intensive than the actual part changes. Many procedures pay nothing at all, such as cleaning out the oil in an intake manifold because it is not considered a warranty issue from Toyota's standpoint. So unless the dealer can convince the customer to pay for it, the technician gets ZERO for doing the work. Most people would be surprised what goes on behind the scenes at a car dealership. There is still a perception that the technician makes tons of money. But it is just not true. So technicians are hurried to get a job done as quickly as possible because if they don't work on like 50 cars in a day, they won't make any money.

Where have you been, the Gen 2 and the Gen 3 both suffer from this same problem all the time.

It isn't hearsay. I have spent hours on end many times in toyota shops (not the waiting room, the actual shop) actually watching this stuff first hand. Now, if I say it, and you repeat it to somebody else it becomes hearsay. But when I say to to you, it is first hand experience.

I was not posting this information as some means to improve a vehicles performance. It is an easy fix for a common problem that people have which is caused by other people's incorrect filling of the oil. It was posted to make life easier for those who are experiencing the problem and how to solve it.

I don't know what your problem is, but you are not being at all helpful to people. You want to challenge my first-hand information as if I'm lying to people, or simply misinformed. What benefit would I gain by that? I spend my time on this forum because I am a Prius enthusiast and because I love the car, I want to freely give of my time to help others. This does not benefit me in any way. I'm not sure what your motives are for being here, but mine are very clear.

Oh - and thank you bwilson4web, for your encouraging remarks on this issue as well. At least somebody here understands.

 

What condition? You haven't yet been specific about that, with regard to your vehicle. And I had hinted that your procedure can indeed resolve an issue, but that it's not the issue you think it is.

A dirty throttle plate and bore can cause engine running problems and even no-starts on the Gen 1 Prius. It doesn't take much to cause this; to some folks, the throttle plate and bore look just fine, even on a vehicle that doesn't start because of this issue. But when you push a rag through your throttle body in the hope that it might soak up some oil in the manifold, you are giving your throttle body a nice cleaning. If you've solved any issue, that is the issue you've solved.

The Toyota service database can be searched by section or keyword. It won't take hours to find the document. And by the way, it takes about fifteen minutes to remove the throttle body and clean out the intake manifold. Three bolts, after the airbox is removed. Try it on your own car.

Okay, so you can't find the document. No problem. I simply wanted to see what section of Toyota's information you had interpreted as endorsing your procedure, so I could follow along. I'm already familiar with their statements on overfilling.

i can't speak for your relatives, since I don't know them. However, in my experience, competent technicians make decent money. If a particular shop uses a pay structure that prevents this, they can simply find another shop. Competent technicians are in demand.

I disagree.

As I suggested several posts back, why not test your theory? Fill your own vehicle's crankcase with four quarts of oil, and see what happens.

You had indicated some familiarity with the auto technician industry. In that industry, "performance issue" refers to the way the engine runs. I simply assumed that you'd know that. Now you do.

That's great that you made the effort. However, I disagree with your methods and your claims. Why should that bother you? You are free to disagree with my statements. It won't bother me.

I don't think you are lying to anyone. I think you truly believe what you have written.

That's great, and I think that's true of most people here, as well.

In this case, I'm trying to provide accurate information to the person with the problem. I took the time to point out the problems I have with your logic, and gave you enough information to be able to investigate your own theory. However, you really haven't responded to any of my points, other than stating "the procedure works".

How does it work?

 

This must be where you mis-interpreted my post. I never said Toyota endorses my procedure, in fact quite to the contrary. All I said was that typically this is what a mechanic will do in the shop in lieu of the official, more time consuming procedure. (if they do anything at all)

That was true 10 years ago. Even maybe 6 years ago. But not anymore. Used to you could go into a dealership and see older technicians that had been doing the work for 20 years. You don't see that anymore. Because pay scales have been cut back so much, you only get really young guys in there that don't know what they are doing. Dealerships rely more and more on a tech-support line to the manufacturer to solve their diagnostic problems, rather than keeping master technicians around who know how to diagnose the tough problems. It is essentially the same trend that has happened in the computer world. 10 years ago a computer technician was in demand and made good money. But now all the best-buys of the world have turned any 16 year old who says he knows how to use a computer into a technician and pays them $8 an hour. Unless you've been inside a dealership's shop lately, you might be surprised how it has changed.

• Techs are not paid for diagnostic work
• Techs must buy their own tools
• techs are now paid by a scale, so if they do an oil-change they only make $8 an hour, but if they change an engine they make $20.
• Most jobs in "the book" cannot be done in the time stated in the manner in which they are supposed to be done. (hence shortcuts are taken)
• warranty work pays about half of what non-warranty work costs.
• employees constantly fight over which jobs they get, because everyone wants the easy jobs that pay more. Only the bullies (or managers pets) make any money, everyone else gets stuck doing the crap.

 

Information, facts and data, are always welcome.

Cite your facts and data and be done with it. But digging into someone else's motivation or other accusations poisons the discussion.

Restrict your postings to facts and data including things that you have personal experience with. Leave the personalities out of it and life will be much, much better. Focus on the subject and not the person or personalities.

This is not a forum about your shortcomings or anyone else. In fact, this thread is about "2002 Prius 138k: Loud rumble (from ICE?) . . ." Turn away from hijacking a technical thread and you might even learn something. But if you already know everything yet won't post it, perhaps there is another place to play ... a place away from folks trying to keep our rides running.

Bob Wilson

 

I didn't misinterpret your post. I had referred to an engine with less than 3.9 quarts of oil as underfilled, and you "corrected" me, thinking at that time that I had misunderstood you. I hadn't; I simply wasn't using your definitions of underfilled and overfilled.

No, you said a lot more than that.

Actually, I was talking about dealerships today. It appears that your experience is with one dealership. Some pay better than others.

But let's not forget that your original reason for making the sweeping claim that technicians "make pennies" was to bolster your argument that a technician wouldn't bother to remove a throttle body to properly clean out an intake manifold because it would take too long and they wouldn't get paid for their work. You further claimed that it would take two hours to remove a throttle body.

Please open your hood and look at your throttle body. Better yet, visit your friends at the dealership and ask them to show you how long it will take to remove it, clean engine oil out of the intake manifold, and reinstall it. As I said, fifteen minutes, tops. As I also said, technicians are typically paid more for longer jobs.

Are you really saying that a technician at a Toyota dealership, on average, is paid $20 to remove and reinstall an engine? That's less than minimum wage. I think the Department of Labor would have a bit of an issue with that.

Are you going to test your theory about the Gen 1 engine oil level?

 

No - $20 an hour was implied. The point I was making is that in the past, dealerships would pay a flat rate to a technician for any job based on the number of hours "the book" says that job should take. But now they are not even doing that anymore, so if a technician does a job that is considered to require less experience, such as rotating tires or changing oil, they get less money per hour.

My experience encompasses 3 dealerships in the Dallas area. I have also read numerous accounts of the same experience on the internet all over the country. So I'm pretty sure my knowledge is not unique to a single place.

 

Are you really saying that a technician at a Toyota dealership, on average, is paid $20 to remove and reinstall an engine? That's less than minimum wage. I think the Department of Labor would have a bit of an issue with that.

Are you going to test your theory about the Gen 1 engine oil level?[/QUOTE]


I believe he meant to say $20 an hour when doing higher level scale work. Some shops do use a scaled system such as this. I can say that the shop where I work does not. Techs are paid flat rate for whichever job they are assigned to do. The shop foreman determines who handles what jobs, holding the more technically challenging jobs for the more experienced/higher trained techs.

Diagnostic fees have become a casualty of the economic times at my shop. Competition from non-dealer shops (advertising free diagnostics) have led to this. Other shops attempt to use this hook to get customers in the door where they are unlikely to leave and go elsewhere for repairs. Free diagnostics include simply pulling the codes and determining if the concern is warranty, straight forward repairs needed (i.e. a common issue that can be reliably diagnosed in a matter of minutes) or requires more detailed diagnostics (which may or may not require a fee, usually diagnostic fees are rolled into the repair total, diag time + repair time = total time)

One reason that you will not see as many older techs is that as cars have become more technologically difficult, the older techs are leaving the industry (or switching to other areas such as service advisors, parts, etc) Keeping up with the new systems means tons of training. A lot of older techs are not interested in learning how to program Bluetooth cell phones and mp3 players, diagnose DVD entertainment systems, figure out navigation, Hybrid systems, programming multiple ECUs (some cars have over 30!) or understanding multiplex wiring systems. On top of all that, consider A/C systems that are now complete climate control systems, airbags, electronic braking systems, radar cruise, laser cruise, auto lights, auto wipers, and lots more. Heck, even the dash lights are no longer controlled by a simple rheostat to dim and brighten them. Now, they are duty cycled to actually flicker on and off at a frequency too fast for the human eye to distinguish.

It isn't easy being a tech. To make things even more fun, we are routinely asked to come out to the service drive to educate customers on how to operate the controls on their car because even the salespersons don't always understand how the systems work.

I gotta admit, I kind of miss the days when a car was simply a machine to get from point A to point B and not a mobile entertainment, communications, monster of technology.

 

with regards to the money discussion, even being a very competent tech is very hard on the personal finances. in fact, i would argue that the techs who do the best job get paid less for the work. why? because doing a thorough job of diagnosis can get very time-consuming, and the pay for diagnostics is next to none. the pay comes from replacing busted parts. actual time spent working is not a factor, it's all piecework. replace part X, get $Y for doing it. repeat. if you take the time to do the job in a thorough manner without shortcuts, you're getting fewer X jobs racked up for the day, you make less money. you don't make money by being competent. you make money with shortcuts to save yourself some time, regardless of if it cuts down on the quality of the repair. and then it comes down to the bottom line- spend too much time cranking out real quality, your service manager gets irritated that your bay isn't bringing in enough revenue. doesn't matter that half the prius driving customers in the area ask for you by name, that you have the highest repair success rate in the shop, and you fix all the problems that nobody else can figure out. being technically competent does not advance a tech's career.

DH also earned every ASE automotive certification there was to earn, even the advanced performance ones. he was the best damned diagnostic tech in the area. in his years at the dealership, he had ONE car come back that wasn't fixed the first time it reached his hands. we were never rich, and we found the return on investment to get him OUT of the field to be a damn good one.

oh, and also consider the fact that most techs end up buying $50k or more worth of specialty tools on their own dime. (practically every job has its own specialty tool.) we spent the first 5 years of DH's career getting him the proper tools and paying them off, and we managed to cheap out and only spend about $25k.

mechanic flat rate pay is exempted from overtime or minimum wage in every state we've lived in. in the dead of january, after the big holiday travel rush, there were weeks DH would spend 50 hours at work waiting for a job to do, and come home with a $50 paycheck because there was no work. would have been better off getting laid off and collecting unemployment. it's like that for a good 3 months out of the year.

so... the only techs that make big money are the ones that do timing belts all day and refuse to do anything else.

 

OK, that makes more sense.

Yes, and many if not most dealerships continue to pay experienced technicians in that manner.

No doubt some are not. Many are. I'd wager that most are.

I'm sure it's not. But it's not true for all dealerships, either. But when I read your earlier post, in which you said:

it appeared to me that you were stating that you were a Toyota technician. In subsequent posts, however, it seems that you are referring to several people who you know who work at dealerships.

Which is it? Or is it both?

And before we get too far off track, let's not forget the reason that the subject came up. You have said that technicians would rather stick a rag down a throttle body than remove the throttle body and properly clean an oiled intake manifold, because (a) they make "pennies" and (b) it takes two hours to do so.

The first assumption is not necessarily true, and I know from experience that the second assumption is not true. Not even close. Try it for yourself.

 

Yes, I've heard of that, too. Five quarts is obviously too much.

Actually, a Gen 1 Prius filled with 3.9 quarts of engine oil, as Toyota recommends, will return the fuel economy that Toyota advertises.

You have no idea whether I own a Gen 1 Prius or not. It is disingenuous to suggest otherwise. And if you truly think anyone is "back-biting", will you be so kind as to provide a link to the exact quote?

Yes, it's well documented.

Did you ever follow up on that?

Why not? The video says that it can cause a no-start. Do you think the video is wrong?

I have addressed the technical issues, as well as adric22's logic behind his or her hypothesis, and nothing else. I have also pointed out that adric22 can test that hypothesis very easily.

Actually, you could run the test yourself. It requires a Gen 1 and just four quarts of oil. You like testing, right? You could make a graph or something when your test results come in.

Who is "we"? Would "we" be you, perchance?

Actually, I've already done that in this thread, thanks.

Let me stop you right there. I haven't seen anyone's motives challenged by anyone else in this thread. Anyone can read that for themselves. Are you hoping that folks who read your post won't bother to read the rest of the thread?

 

That's what I have provided.

I did. I also suggested a method that you can use to check my claims. Go for it.

Again, no one has done that. Re-read the thread and see for yourself.

Indeed, I did exactly that.

 

Yeah, that would make a lot more sense.

That has been my observation, as well, with Toyota and Lexus dealerships. I'm sure some stores are as adric22 suggests, but I don't think they are anywhere near the majority.

I've seen that in some areas, as well, and that is why I did not challenge that assertion.

All good points. Yet from the posts, it would appear that many folks on this forum assume that dealership technicians are automatically knuckle-dragging thieves. One forum member, for example, enjoys referring to dealerships as "stealerships", even though a simple MAF diagnosis kicked his butt the other day. Nice of him to try and help, of course, but man, that finger-pointing rhetoric is getting old.

 

Asked:

And answered:

Had you limited your contribution to your experiments, your experience, no problem. But instead, you take delight in questioning and attacking posters over and over again. Don't propose the experiment you are too lazy to replicate. Take your own medicine and 'do the experiment.'

Look at what has happened to this thread. Instead of discussing "Re: 2002 Prius 138k: Loud rumble (from ICE?) when started" it has, thanks to your backbiting, personal challenges to anyone with Prius experience, into a discussion of Toyota tech labor practices (actually more labor abuse.) Instead of focusing on the original poster, the owner's problem, we're chatting about a labor issue . . . aborting the reason this forum exists.

I only know you from your posting habits but it is clear you don't or can't take the same medicine you dish out to others. Do the hard work and perform the experiments you propose.

Bob Wilson

 

Quoted from Bwilson4web:

Look at what has happened to this thread. Instead of discussing "Re: 2002 Prius 138k: Loud rumble (from ICE?) when started" it has, thanks to your backbiting, personal challenges to anyone with Prius experience, into a discussion of Toyota tech labor practices (actually more labor abuse.) Instead of focusing on the original poster, the owner's problem, we're chatting about a labor issue . . . aborting the reason this forum exists.

Indeed, you are correct, Bob, and I apologize for my part in distracting from the original purpose of this thread.

To the Original Poster: Did you get a satisfactory solution to your issue? I think I read where a new set of plugs and cleaning the intake and throttle body did correct your concerns.... Hopefully, that is the case, and if you are still having issues I will offer any and all help I can give.

 

Questioning, yes. There is nothing wrong with that.

Attacking, no. I didn't agree with adric22's conclusions, nor with the logic. I think it's fair to give adric22 an opportunity to reply and clarify before making assumptions, and that's what I did.

Oh, I'm not too lazy to do so, and I'm not guessing at results, either.

Over the years, I have observed many perfectly running Gen 1 vehicles with properly filled crankcases, as defined by Toyota. I have also observed that many shops either fill to Toyota's defined FULL line, or - as I pointed out - simply dump in four quarts. Finally, I'm not aware of Toyota changing its fill line level for the Gen 1 Prius.

I called a variety of service facilities and determined that yep, by and large, folks were getting 3.9 to 4.0 quarts of oil with their oil changes. With the permission of vehicle owners, I then filled several vehicles with four quarts of oil (yes, slightly overfilled - this is an experiment, remember?) and monitored the results. The vehicles have tens of thousands of miles on them in a variety of conditions. They are running fine.

If you don't agree with my conclusions, you can, as I have said repeatedly, conduct the experiment yourself.

As described before, I already did. I just didn't see the need to boast. It isn't much of an experiment; it just happened to be one that I had already started well before this thread.

But as you are fond of saying, "seeing is believing." Rather than simply point out what I had done, I felt it was more useful and instructive to provide adric22 with an opportunity to investigate his or her assumptions.

And ever since you have been corrected on numerous technical issues, you've been fond of jumping in to threads and accusing folks of things that simply did not happen. I felt it was quite likely that regardless of the evidence presented, you would simply say that it was made up. Hence, I also explained that you, too, could investigate the issue for yourself.

Thanks for giving me the opportunity to clarify things.

 

One of the best ways to 'question' someone's result is your direct observations and tests. There is no need to question someone's motives but bring some value to the discussion. Lay out the facts and data as you see it and let the reader choose.

No problem. I suspect you may have something to contribute but make it to the subject at hand. Personalities are best handled over a beer or in a non-public forum. If you think another technical approach works better, post it, and let the readers choose. Try it and folks will look forward to your postings.

Remember, you're dealing with people who have, own, and daily drive our rides. When we post our observations, it is what we see and know to be the case for us and our cars. But most of us have open eyes and ears and are receptive to better technical solutions.

Bob Wilson

 

You have nothing to apologize for. Addressing the original poster, forum member adric22 posted a video that documented a service procedure for a similar problem. I pointed out, among other things, that in the case of a legitimate overfill, one would need to remove the throttle body to adequately clean out the intake manifold.

In response, adric22 stated that such a procedure would not likely take place at a dealership because technicians make "pennies" and because the procedure would supposedly take too long (two hours). I don't agree with those assertions, nor with many of the subsequent claims that adric22 made about dealership labor practices and their effect on a technician's ability to perform the task of cleaning out a intake manifold. Hence, the discussion of dealership labor practices. So yes, the discussion was relevant to the original purpose of the thread.

Your contributions, and those of galaxee, may also give pause to folks who are quick to write "I bet the technician would have ripped me off" when they have no idea whether that would have happened or not. Professional auto repair can be hard and complex work. I think your post contributed to the thread.