But child molestation is OK

where's the love?

 

There's no love like cute Choir Boy love

 

ending one life to save another, "the end does not justify the means", let them both die. hmm...

 

Hogwash. I've taken recently Catholic university courses in theology.
Basically atheists trying to shake religion with half truths, IOW, saying on the parts that make for a 'good' story.

As in a state of "loss of grace" for taking away a human life. All it takes is the sacrament of pardon with a Catholic priest - which he is obliged to give. It DOES NOT mean you are forever banned !!! As a baptized Christian you have rights.

Excommunicated from latin - before you reenter Church for communion with the Holy Ghost and share with the blood and flesh of Christ - you must be pardoned.
(For every immoral action - a positive moral action to counter)

For Jews - they have purification rites - what John the Baptist did in the Jordan, for the poor Jews. For a Jew, he cannot enter the synagogue w/o purification.
Jesus changed that for us - and extended to all humanity.

In Canon Law, there are two important concepts.

1. Translation from Latin - a non-evolving language (think King James with 'Thou'), thus modern synonyms can have positive or negative connotations.
Like the word 'gay' doesn't mean the same today as in 1950.

2. Element of danger. Canon law is purposely vague in some areas, and quite specific in others, by design. However there is always one element, danger, that supersedes in all cases.
Like a Catholic going to war to kill Germans/Japanese in WWII.

For abortions - everyone involved - the doctor, nurse, parents, 'boyfriend / one night stand / rapist', lose God's grace given at baptism & confirmation.

If you die in this state - the Vatican cannot guarantee that the soul will rise to heaven - it is up to God's will. God is not subject to the sacraments instituted by Jesus and the first popes.

However, the sacrament of pardon puts you back in God's grace. Even a convicted serial killer on the electric chair - that was baptized - can repent with a priest and be placed back in God's grace. Though God's grace has no bearing on social justice.

Before Jesus is was quite black & white with the Jews, Jesus tempered this. Think of the Jews that wanted to stone to death a woman accused of adultery.

LAST - Remember the age of most (outspoken) Priests - how often do your parents use synonyms that make you cringe, because of their outdated meanings?

If there is a DANGER (abortion) - and action was taken in a morally correct manner - no sin has occurred because both lives tried to be saved, the sacrament of pardon is still suggested for helping deal with the trauma caused, counseling, etc.

If there is no danger (abortion) - then a sin was committed, especially since contraception exists. Sacrament of pardon is no longer suggested but necessary.
All it is a a prayer before, talk about it, why you did it, how it affects you, and a prayer after. A mere 10 minutes or less. Parting words of Priest : Go and sin no more.

The GRAY area is RAPE - where's the danger? My personal opinion is that there was danger before, and during the act. Sacrament of pardon is necessary not just for 'lost of grace' but for strengthening the person(s) involved to talk and share, heal, especially for the victim - that poor girl.

There is precedent in Canon law in marriages - where a Catholic marriage can be declared null and void because one of the two were in some form of danger / coercion, and thus not of entire free will.

 

So lose the child and save the mother or save the child and lose the mother. Not an easy call. Seems the priest would rather the child survived?

 

Worst case scenario : a nun gets raped and is with child.

If abortion is legal in her country, she can have it done, w/o consent of her community or her bishop. Social law >> Canon law at all times.

After the abortion, that nun could visit any Priest, for the sacrament of pardon, and return to her normal life unencumbered.

Reality, however, would be that she talks about it - involving people that have NO legal rights over her life and the one she carries - trying to influence her. That's wrong; she can be counseled but not influenced.

In this scenario, the nun's community would say to bring the child to term and have it adopted. If there's a complication, the mother's life is more important than the fetus, because in order for a fetus to become a 'child' it must live on its own for 24 hours. A human life is greater than a fetus's life. Even though it is a sin to kill the fetus - just like any soldier to take a life even for protection.
That's why all armies have Chaplans.

What's sad in all cases, is that the sacrament of pardon is confused with parole - justice is not part of this equation. Just because a Priest absolves a sin does not diminish social law in any way, for anyone.

There have been priests sent to prison for child molesting/rape - they are not above the law. However, few parents push the issue to court.
(I think this wise. Consider court costs and social costs to pay for prison. The victim instead gets money to pay for counseling, which is reparation.)

Currently in N.A. any priest suspected of such wrongdoings is taken out of the diocese and placed in a secluded community for the remainder of his life. They do not become parish priests again. If it goes to court, the priest serves his sentence, THEN is placed in a secluded community.
(Imagine living in a monastery in the equivalent of solitary confinement - that priest won't have any friends.)

Reasoning being that if they let him go out into the world, no longer a Priest, he could molest children elsewhere...hockey coach, daycare, school volunteer, etc.

 

Is the discussion of the rights and wrongs of a major religion suited to this forum? What about all the good work they do?

Perhaps we should add some balance and discuss the rights and wrongs of Islam?

 

Nice.

If you read my text above, you'll see that by placing things in context, the issue is a non-issue. It's just being blown out of proportion - with big words - to scare people / sheeple.

Reminds me of a certain email that got out from a scientist that has turned into Climategate.

 

Does anyone really follow the Catholic Church's moral concerns?
Even the most ardent (gullible) followers I know, seem to have come to some understanding about their God not part of the depravity conducted by so many priests around the world and the systemic cover-ups that have depleted one of the most powerful money making machines, the Catholic Church, into a series of class action law suites.
Until the Catholic Church makes serious fundamental changes in their thinking I would recommend those who would like to support the Catholic Church just make the checks out to their law firms handling their multiple sexual abuse cases.
Thank GOD there were hospital representatives that used good judgment with this woman needing medical care.

 

i think most people are in tune with their own local church (myself included) and are saddened (and more) by the behaviors of some at a higher level. but Jesus said there would be imposters and to stay awake and be alert. so much good is done at the local level (just like government) we cannot afford to be distracted bu issues beyond our control.

 

This whole long post is incomprehensible. It seems to be written in some sort of mysterious shorthand.

However, for nearly two thousand years, the Church claimed that its priests were outside the jurisdiction of civil law, and until the Church lost control over civil authorities, priests could not be tried or punished by civil authorities. The ONLY reason priests can be jailed for rape today is that the Church no longer has the political power to prevent it.

But up until very recently, the Church covered up for criminal priests and protected them, typically moving them to new parishes where (typically) they repeated their crimes. It is true that a very small percentage of priests were criminals. But the Church as an institution consistently protected those who were. The entire Church, as an institution, and its governing bishops and cardinals and popes, are guilty of conspiracy after the fact to conceal and protect rapists.

Good works to not justify covering up for rapists. Good works do not justify two millennia of torture, murder, genocide, and the destruction of cultures.

I'm an equal-opportunity atheist: I regard Islam as being just as vile as Christianity. Oh, and Judaism also, though it's only been in the last 60 years or so that religious Jews have had a country in which they could prove they are just as bloodthirsty and vile as the Christians and Muslims.

Everywhere clerics gain political power, the result is tyranny and disregard for humanity.

 

Somehow they missed this during crusades ... sigh.

 

I think the professor of the Teaching Company course on the History of the Catholic Church said that it was in the fifth century (but I might have the date wrong) that a pope claimed that "It is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the authority of the Pope." In other words, according to the Catholic Church at that time, god would not allow you into heaven if the Pope said no. The Church has never really backed down from this idea.

At the beginnings of Judaism, Jews didn't claim that there was only one god. They merely claimed that the best god wanted them to worship him and no other. Gentiles were free to worship the other gods. "Belief" was not a concern. The pagans did not care whether you believed in the gods or not, just so long as you paid them cult by sacrificing, which, if you were poor, could be as little as burning a pinch of incense which the government would provide for you. And belief was not an issue with the Jews either. Obedience, not belief, was what mattered. Lots of laws you had to obey.

Paul (not Jesus!) invented the idea that what mattered was that you believe that Jesus was the christ. So with the Christians arose the brand-new idea that there was only one god, only one path to salvation, and that if you believed the "wrong" things you would be tortured forever (by a god who loves you!) A "logical" extension of this illogical notion was that the CEO of this new Church gets to say who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, and that god would do whatever this CEO tells him to!

The Catholic Church, in order to consolidate its political power and wealth, made god into a bureaucrat acting under the direction of the Pope. No wonder Martin Luther broke away! And to this day the Catholic Church claims to be the only path to salvation, and continues to claim that a god who loves you will torture you forever if you make the "mistake" of believing in a rival theology.

But to be fair, nearly all Christians, and all Muslims as well, claim that their own narrow sect holds the only true understanding, and that you have to believe exactly what they believe, or a good and kind and just and loving god will torture you forever. Is it any wonder that people who have not been brainwashed at an early age will regard religion with disgust?

 

About that long post...hehe. That was in between two intense programming sessions.

Trying to put out two concepts in one post...instead of two posts. In a nutshell:

1) Latin interpretation - about the excommunicated bit. What it means is not that you're kicked out of Church, but you have lost grace between yourself and God. Sacrament of pardon will restore it.

That little girl and her mom in Brazil -case in point.

2) Canon law and Danger. Most canon laws have a 'danger' clause, to supersede previous statements.

A regular priest can do the sacrament of confirmation, instead of a bishop, if danger to life exists. Just a simple example.

More complex - Christians in Afghanistan killing insurgents following orders.

 

How they get from Jesus to permitting participation in war is the greatest mystery of all. Basically, you have to reject everything Jesus stood for. That's made easier by Paul, who said that you need not follow Jesus's teachings; you merely need to believe that he was the christ. Some Christians do try to follow Jesus. But the mainstream Christian churches follow Paul. Sad, really.

 

And just what has all this to do with a Prius?
(kidding)

 

Paul would have driven a Prius. Jesus would have driven a Zap Xebra EV. The Pope rides around in an armored car that probably gets about 3 mpg. Pedophile priests drive Chevy Suburbans. Cardinals drive motor homes. And it's all tax free because it's a church.

 

i know we're discussing the historical catholic church, but you should try reading the bible and backing up some of those claims with quotes.