But child molestation is OK

And yet Paul invented the idea that it was BELIEF in Jesus, rather than obeying Jesus's lifestyle commandments, that mattered.

Modern Christianity asserts that Jesus was born Divine. And the Marcianites claimed that he was not even born at all, but merely pretended to have a material body. But the Ebianites believed that he was just a man who, by virtue of his perfect life, was "adopted" by god to be his messenger. Lots of different beliefs about who or what Jesus was.

As for the theory that Jesus never actually existed, there is enough indirect evidence that we can say that there probably was a historical Jesus. Of course, like Robin Hood and Bat Masterson, popular beliefs about him far exceed the reality. If you define Jesus as a guy who walked on water and raised the dead, then Jesus never existed. But if you define him as a guy who preached the apocalypse, advocated absolute love of your enemies, voluntary poverty, etc., and was executed for being inconvenient to the authorities, then he probably did.

Of course, if he really did rise from the dead then he's a zombie, and if you see him coming you better run, because he probably wants to eat your brains!

 

Not really. There is no direct or indirect evidence. Though I do beleive he probably did exist.

I'm convinced this was not the case. Just see all the writings of all zealot sects around the time of Jesus ... This was just Paul's invention to make a zealot palatable to Rome.

 

don't confuse true belief with professed belief. none of us knows whether we are saved until we die. then, the Lord who knows our hearts will tell us if we are invited to sit at the table with him. if you say you believe, but there is no visible evidence in your life, do you truly? and that's not to say we are perfect, but we would certainly be making every effort to be.

 

Since God knows everything, visible evidence doesn't matter, does it ? Afterall, according to some Christians Hitler will go to heaven and Gandhi to hell

 

Now I agree with this! Which is why I sometimes say there are no Christians, because nobody REALLY believes that stuff. (I admit there are exceptions, but not very many.) I say that anybody who really believes that this life is dross and what really matters is the next life, and who also believes that Jesus is the christ, will not care about politics, will not participate in war, will not own more than one set of clothing, will not have savings for tomorrow or more food than the meal he is sitting down to at the moment, will truly love those who harm him, etc.

On the other hand, not everybody believes that some are saved while others are lost. Universalists believe that a loving god welcomes everyone to heaven, no matter what. I have a very devout Catholic friend who (against Church dogma) is a universalist. She believes that when we hurt each other, god suffers, so the REASON to be good is out of gratitude to god, not in hopes of reward, and that everyone goes to heaven. One could be an Ebionite, a Marcionite, or a trinitarian, and still be a universalist, though few are. I don't think a Gnostic can be a universalist. Gnosticism pretty well excludes those who do not posses the secret knowledge.

 

don't forget mason's!

 

but, then again, if you don't believe in a known creator, what is life but survival of the fitist. and to what end?

 

When some fundamentalists claim that Hitler goes to heaven & Gandhi to hell - that shows they think only belief matters, not action.

 

Such fools...

Known creator... ummmm... whose list are you using...

Who said it isn't survival of the fittest Bra... certainly monotheistic works don't; neither does the lore from some other beliefs in my family tree... which sort of supports a lot of other hypothesis of the meaning of life... and in addition... who said it ends... who said there can't be another beginning when this universe comes to it's cold end, or before that for that matter...

I remember reading an old asian text that said we were in the 64th universe... what if that means we were only one of many attempts at jumpstarting something out as intelligent life... and on the flip side of that coin, what if we haven't come close to the mark yet, and will be doomed by the creator to become enveloped by the next "Big Bang" to happen... or, maybe... using the same logic, the first coming of the FSM... which, I personally am rooting for because of the promise of a draft porter with limited calories and no loss of body.





So saith I... First Deacon (some have another word for it), Church of the Living Bob.

I am alive, hallelujah...

 

Some folks find the thought of a meaningless universe so disturbing that they flock to anyone who offers a theology in which god loves them and hates their enemies, and life has a god-ordained purpose and meaning.

Well, the way I see it, life is just what happens between the big bang and the big freeze. (Or the big crunch, though the latest evidence favors the freeze rather than the crunch. No matter.) In the process of moving from low entropy to high entropy, complexity inevitably arises for a while. Life is one form that complexity takes. There is no "meaning" and there is no ultimate "purpose." However, we have consciousness, and emotion, and you can set yourself goals, which is to say, you can decide your own purpose, and therefore give yourself subjective meaning. Liberal religions recognize the validity of creating your own meaning and purpose in life. Conservative religions insist that you accept the meaning and purpose that somebody invented thousands of years ago, as interpreted by some preacher today. But the bottom line is that life is what you make of the cards you're dealt. In a few years you're dead. A few people will remember you for a while, and eventually you'll be forgotten. In a few billion years the Earth will be swallowed up by the sun, and nothing that happened here will matter. It will be exactly as though we never existed. Poof! Religion happens because people cannot accept their own end. And we're really good at making up stories. Maybe some day a new religion will compile our vampire and zombie stories as their scriptures, and people will be told that if they don't believe that Dan O'Bannon was the christ, a zombie will eat their brains.

 

Why assume it's meaningless, just because there's no god? What's really disturbing is the thought of an omnipotent, omniscient being controlling our every move and thought.

 

i don't assume it's meaningless, i know it is. why do we spend time here worrying about using up fossil fuels so someone else can have them? to to go get that land yacht you've always wanted!

 

Why assume it must have a meaning?

I know you're being facetious, but one of the fallacies promoted by religion is that atheists don't care about anyone else. Religion claims that itself is the ONLY reason anybody could possibly have for not being selfish.

In fact, being "good" just because you're scared of god is the ultimate in selfishness.

Human beings have an altruistic side rooted in our genes because we are a social animal that recognizes the benefits of pack solidarity, and because we are born so helpless that parents must be willing to sacrifice in order to assure the survival of their kids. This has nothing to do with religion, and it is bullshit for religion to claim that religion is the only motivation to be respectful of others. In fact, altruism is observed routinely in many social animals.

Sure, I could say, there's no punishment in the afterlife, so I'll be as wasteful as I can. I don't, because I just don't like the idea. I think all religion is bullshit. But it's in my genes to care, just as it is in everyone who's not a psychopath.

 

I've never wanted a land yacht, really. I'd be quite happy seeing the world from a bicycle.

Although, a folding trimaran would be nice. About 10 metres long, with a small biodiesel and at least some of the comforts of home.

 

If I didn't get seasick I'd want about a hundred-foot sailing yacht with wind turbines on top of the two masts for electric power, and just the smallest possible electric motor for propulsion into and out of harbor. And an all-girl crew. I guess it would have to have propane for cooking.

But I've never wanted a large car. A small car is easier to drive and much easier to park.

 

people come in all levels of caring. and all levels of evil. but some say they care and don't act on it while others do. some make it personal, and others expect big brother to do their dirty work for them.

 

My point is that belief in any religion is not an indicator of caring. Religion does not make people "moral" or nice or good. People who believe in religion use their religion as an excuse for bad behavior, or they credit religion for their good behavior, while atheists give non-supernatural reasons for their choices.

Religion's claim to make people better is bullshit. And forcing people to pray or to go to church, as religious extremists want to do, will not solve any of our social problems, and will just lead to oppression of people who do not share the religion of the people in power.

What religion does is create artificial walls between people, leading to suspicion, hatred, and violence.

 

And to bring it back to the thread topic, priests who molest children probably tell themselves that it's okay because they are doing god's work by spreading the faith. And bishops who protect such priests say that it's okay because to allow the priest to be punished would make the Church look bad, and since the Church (according to them) is doing god's work, it's better to allow a few children to be raped than to tarnish the reputation of the Church. (Never mind that it backfired, and the reputation of the Church is at an all-time low.)

So religion becomes the excuse for child molestation, and the justification for covering it up. Religion is evil, and the only reason it has not destroyed civilization completely is that most people only give it lip service, but don't actually believe it.

 

A hundred feet is way too big, unless you were planning on taking the whole town with you. A combination of solar, wind, and hydro should be able to provide all the power necessary, without the propane. A minimum crew of one sounds about right, though a few passengers would be fine.

At best, it's just another social club. At worst, it's a form of oppression and control.