EVs and the future power grid

Maybe the search tool can become your best friend. There, you'll discover a wealth of info, related to posts that calm the hand wringing FUD about how the grid will necessarily fail. Did you know, for instance, that EV power can be back fed onto the grid, just like my PV panels do? But then, there's no where near as much drama, taking that tact.

And isn't it funny how no one "fears" for the grid, when it comes to cranking millions of AC compressors for hours on end ... RIGHT during peak loads ... unlike EV's that can be charged at night/early morning. BTW, there is a separate forum for posts related to "off topic's" ... such as the grid ... EV's ... recharging and the like. Watch & see how quickly our Mod's do their thing ~

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who can predict the future? at the worst, we're forced to begin the grid overhaul we all know we need. but it would be a lot easier if gas was $10. per gallon!

 

Sure. Get in the Prius instead of the EV. In case you missed it, all the EV drivers on this forum have a second vehicle. Those that have a PHEV would just operate as a hybrid. Problem completely solved.

Your kidding yourself if you think that gas will be reliably available and electricity would be unreliable over the long term. The opposite situation is vastly more likely.

 

Been there, done that with gasoline too. Remember the OPEC Oil Embargo of 1973?

The price spikes of 1979 and 2005-8, and probably a few more events in between, fall into the same category as electric brownouts -- you can have some, but not as much as you were accustomed to, unless you have deeper pockets than the other customers.

 

nanny nanny boo boo.

 

Wow. I thought the answers were well reasoned, and right on target. I've been driving an EV as our main vehicle for over ten years now. And because I have some experience, many view my comments as snobbery - so what I have to say may not even be considered relevant.

But wow. Creating a stable grid is WAY easier than maintaining a steady supply of gasoline. We can create electricity at home! Something not possible with gasoline. When gasoline cars were new, we had no gas stations. Anywhere! And somehow, we made it work. Today we're building new homes with multiple AC units and pools and god knows what other power-hungry devices... and we muddle through. EVs have the ability to shave peaks... and thus make our grid MORE stable, and less likely to have issues. Yes, there needs to be some planning and some investment. No, it is not rocket science or much to worry about compared to, say, our oil supply.

Really, I have very little to add to what others have already said. And since that didn't sit well with you, I'll just leave you to your worries.

 

Some thoughts:
Nissan hopes to make 50,000 Leafs (Leaves?) a year. I hope they sell every one. But that will not be a large percentage of the 60 million cars made worldwide each year.

Other makers have plans but none as far into construction or as high volume as the Leaf.

So we won't be overwhelmed by EVs over night, as much as we would (or wouldn't) like it to be so.

Speaking of overnight, if you recharge you EV at home, a concerned utility could enable on demand charging at their minimum usage times. Those who recharge at work will be more in peak times. (and at the mercy of their employer's HR dept)

This, of course, demolishes your entire argument, so we should not go there.
DC fast charger

You speak of 'the grid,' but like 'the internet' it is a series of redundant and interlocking projects. Will some of them fail in the future? Yes. Will that be due to EVs? They will make an interesting scapegoat. If it fails at 3 AM it might actually be due to EVs.

 

Someone is just a little bit touchy, I'd have to say. I think you guys hit a nerve.

Tom

 

The way it is now? No. But then, not much of anything will last fifteen years without maintenance and upgrades. Ultimately, living without gasoline will be easier than living without electricity. Next time there's a power outage (perhaps your municipality needs to improve its systems) think of an EV in the driveway as your battery backup.

 

Well of COURSE we can't be civil like you . . . because obviously we are the name you call us ... all of us ... 100% of us. Kind of a self fulfilling prophecy, eh?

Self-fulfilling prophecy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(as you say, "Look") For some, it's an inexplicable wonder we could survive 911 ... the cuban missile crisis/cold war ... contrail conspiracies ... Y2K ... Pearl Harbor.

For some, with "can do" attitudes, it's just another OPORTUNITY. If I sit around too much, ranting about, "We're DOOMED ... what ever are we going to do?!? " ... my wife will lovingly tell me, "when are you going to clean out the garage!! ... when are you going to amend the trust!! ... when are you going to help with all the WORK around here ... and GET OFF that damn computer, writing to strangers, you don't even know!"

Kind of helps me keep all the hand wringing down to a minimum.



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Yes, theoretically, EVs could signficantly add to demand.

Yes, the US grid is a joke.

But, and it's a big but, there are important factors that reduce the concern.

- the current grids already have to deal with peak demand.
- peak demand is already growing
- peak demand is much higher than off-peak demand
- an EV is a large consumer of electricity
- as a large consumer of electricity there will be a significant financial incentive to charge EVs off-peak
- Initial (or perhaps all) EV use will be in affluent areas where electricity consumption is already high and the local grids are higher capacity.
- in areas using electric heat local capacity is already very high
- EV use will grow steadily, but will be limited based on manufacture.
- Most of the time EVs will not be empty before overnight charging
- Most power cuts are short
- There will be EVs and PHEVs.

So
- There is currently spare capacity
- Utilities are having to prepare for increasing peak demand anyway
- The increase in peak demand from EVs will be much, much less than the total consumption
- The will be no significant unexpected demand
- A power cut will not stop PHEVs
- A power cut will probably not stop EVs
- A power cut will not likely prevent emergency use of an EV.
- There are taxi cabs

 

Existing Hybrids: I doubt you can make any case that they impact 'the grid*' at all. They do not draw from 'the grid', they are not designed to help power 'the grid'.

Plug In Hybrids: Toyota's Plug In Prius has very little range and so draws very little electricity from 'the grid', still not designed to add back to 'the grid' as needed.

Hybridized Electric cars: Chevy's Volt offers to take more electricity from 'the grid', it also has an drivetrain that can help power 'the grid' on bad days. The battery is also large enough it could be used to help smooth load, drain the battery in peak times, recharge in dead of night.

Pure Electric cars: Nissan's Leaf also has the potential to drain 'the grid' and to smooth demand, but has no power modes to act as a UPS for 'the grid'. If your EV had a hybridizing trailer, (Rav Long Ranger) it could be left at home being a UPS at least 80% of the time you were driving, and all the time you are not driving.

*'the Grid' as a single entity is clearly an illusion, or the rest of us would lose power when your town does.

 

Actually, I'm a 52 Electrical Engineer that has been working with Electrical Power for the last 20 years. Also on this site are a great many very, very smart posters that really understand the grid, electric cars, charging technology, etc. You did not wander into a bunch of Prius Snobs, you started a thread that shocked most of us with the lack of awareness of the actual US electrical grid, it's problems, and it's strengths. If you want to learn something, mutually respectful discussions will be good, please engage. Please note that a great deal of the folks here have many years of driving electric vehicles, work for power companies, and have educated me extensively about my initial misconceptions about an all electic transportation future. Snobs we are not, but don't expect that posting misconceptions will get you praise.

So? The same solution mentioned earlier is still accurate. That's why there are rental car firms, planes, and "share-a-ride" programs.

When hurricanes come though FL, the loss of electricity also causes most gas stations to shutdown. After the hurricane shuts down power for a protracted period, the major problem is getting gas. My first action when a hurricane approaches is to fill the cars, everything else is much easier to handle. If your scenario actually occurs, you have overlooked this interlocked issue of being unable to get gas.

It's not a big issue to upgrade the grid. Look how fast the cell phone infrastructure sprung into existence. That uses as much material as major grid upgrades.

There is always a lot of talk about our "decaying" grid infrastructure. It's actually a economic problem of removing the power generators from grid maintenance years ago. With just a few legislative changes the grid gaps are quickly solved. It's most certainly is NOT a technical issue of any sort. We know how to provide reliable electricity to any location that requires it. It's absolutely no different than our "decaying" highway infrastructure. Sure there are some roads in bad shape, but my real worry is bad drivers, not bad roads. One is trivial to fix, the other impossible to fix. I'm much more worried about being able to get an electric car than the power to operate it.

No, it's not impossible. However, it helps to bring facts to the discussion, not just opinions.

 

As long as they don't get feely i'm ok with it!!

 

First I have to run this posting through the fecal matter editor:

Ok, now we have something worth addressing.

Going over your points:

• second vehicle does not have to be a car - a bicycle or electric scooter is a fine solution for local trips up to a couple of miles. Shoes also work.
• energy is what we have - the key is whether or not we can 'trick ourselves' into doing the right thing or continue doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.
• power grid reliability - this is why my NHW11 Prius has a 1 kW inverter for emergency power. I continue to look at co-generation and ways to improve efficiency.

Now as to the removed fecal matter, perhaps, just perhaps, it has no place in a serious discussion. I spent four years in the Marine Corps and am fully trained to discuss poor posting practices with accurate and excruciating detail. We don't need to go there although I realize there are mental masochists who lacking manners seek the application of a verbal 'clue by four.' Ultimately, insults don't work as there is an 'ignore user' list. The choice is yours.

Bob Wilson

 

Wild guess here; no, he doesn't, since he isn't that old.

Side note: one of the people at our local power utility told me that they are looking forward to more EVs, since they can be utilized to balance the load on the grid, with the right kind of chargers on them. Kind of like the meter boxes for water heaters that we had back in Minnesota to offset the huge energy draw of "milking time" on the farms.

 

if u dont like the responses, then leave. because we dont need u. go elsewhere. gas will dominate the world for decades even if we all went to EV's ASAP. u have plenty of company. go join www.EVSAreNotaPerfectSolution.com there u can talk with people who think like u. when u do leave here; keep in mind, u will not be the only feeling some frustration here.

personally, i am sick and very very tired to hear about what cant be done.

what might happen

or how it does not work for everyone.

its like we dont know what u r saying?? like give me a break, i have heard what u have to say about a million times i do not want to hear it anymore. so if this board responses chases u out, good!!



better yet, lets think about continuing to use oil and taking bigger and bigger risks to get it and what might happen if we have an accident??

well, sadly we dont have to think about it. we can simply LIVE IT as we are now. 20 Billion?? sorry, money cant buy its way out of everything and 20 B is no where enough anyway.

what is the cost of happiness, sense of accomplishment? well being? roots? future? how much money will it cost to replace that for people who live in the Gulf. will the coast even be habitable when all is said and done.

Come here and tell me what u CAN DO. i dont need negativity. i can get that on the news