Edmunds drives the 2011 Hyundai Sonata Hybrid; Has some interesting features

I feel much more connected to the road with a manual compared to an eCVT. The way I feel, I am the middle man with a manual, but the middle man with the eCVT is the computer, which is making decisions for me without being able to anticipate road and traffic conditions. Some sort of manual control for the eCVT in those cases would make me feel more connected to the road.

 

eCVT has manual controls. You can glide, stealth, EV, regen brake, or accelerate with a flick of right foot. A lot of new non-hybrid engines are controlled by computers (ECU) now. Many are drive-by-wire.

With eCVT, the driver plays manager role. With manual transmission, the driver plays both manager and manual labor roles. With automatic, the driver is the manager of a lazy and slow laborer. Whatever float your boat.

 

I blinked I meant to say "not optimal". Poor choice of word from my part. Drees understood what I meant.

Hybrid owners are NOT obsessed with the sound or smell of the exhaust like the non-hybrids tin can modders, animal roars or glass breaking squeal. The goal is for the lack of exhaust, in fact. Don't fall for how the cartoon portrait hybrid owners.

I believe I showed respect to seftonm and your preference in transmission. Discussing the pluses, minuses and why we like them is constructive. Of course eCVT is the best and it is the future. :rockon:

 

I mean manual controls in the more traditional sense. If I want my engine off at 70mph, or to change or hold gear ratios in anticipation of something ahead, I can. With more manual control of the eCVT, I probably wouldn't be able to do the first one, but at least I should be able to do the latter. I don't particularly like the feel of drive by wire, but have come to accept it as a necessary feature for all the other benefits it provides.

Driving is already manual labor since you still have to control pedals and steering regardless of transmission type. I don't find using one extra foot to be onerous labor compared to the three limbs that I would have to use anyway for driving. It's actually kind of fun. But maybe my boat floats differently than most?

 

Why would you want to turn off your engine at 70mph? How would you in a manual transmission car without turning off the car? For a eCVT car, just back away from accelerator pedal and that's it. The ICE will idle under 1,000 RPM without consuming fuel.

There is no need certain hold gear ratio in anticipation of anything ahead because 36hp battery is waiting to get discharged. Remember, in eCVT the ICE is disconnected from the wheels -- meaning it is free to rev at any RPM. For a manual transmission, you need to plan ahead to fit into the best gear ratio because if you don't, the power delivery is severely limited and performance would suffer.

 

I've gotten used to DBW, but when I get back into a car that still uses a throttle cable, it just feels so much more direct. The engine seems to respond more quickly to my right foot without having as many computer components in the way. It feels kind of like eco vs pwr settings, pwr being the throttle cable.

I've never driven a paddle shifted CVT, but my friend did not too long ago and he liked it. He said it was very fast and smooth.

 

Coasting downhill, turning the engine off is more efficient than leaving it spinning. Even spinning but not burning any fuel, the friction and pumping loss will suck some momentum so it's still usually worse than just putting in neutral and shutting down. I turn the key to off for a second or two, then put it back to the on position. That kills the engine but leaves everything else running.

I'm not sure if the Prius is different, but everyone in my family finds our Highlander Hybrid a little slow to react when the driver suddenly steps on the accelerator, especially if the engine was off. If we had some sort of manual control to fire up the engine a second or two in advance, or get the gear ratio into a more optimal state, then that complaint would probably disappear.

Planning ahead is something every good driver should do IMO. Driving is more than just reacting. It is observing and planning to avoid dangerous or other undesirable situations. I try to practice that, and as a result, don't find myself in the wrong gear.

 

I am surprised that driving 70mph with the car turned off is legal in Canada. It is just not a good driving practice. Hybrids offer a very safe alternative so one would not have to go that extreme to get awesome MPG.

As far as planning ahead goes, it is not applicable for eCVT. The plan is already in binary stored in hybrid ECU. The power button is the closest thing I can think of to enhance how that plan gets executed. For manual transmission, you need to plan and shift ahead to avoid delay in power delivery. That act of shifting ahead again causes "not optimal" condition. You are stating a bad thing as a good thing.

I find no need to press the accelerator before passing with Prius because the power is available instantaneously. If you focus on the speedometer instead of waiting for the sound of the gas engine kick in, you'll see the hybrid accelerating before the gas engine revved up.

Lexus LS600h (maybe even GS550h) has the step gear simulation so you can "downshift". That'll just give you the feeling and I think it is a stupid feature. We see things like that everyday. We have computers (digital device) displaying analog clock.

 

I am not sure if driving at 70mph with the engine off is legal or not. But note that I am not turning the entire car off. Only the engine. Maybe my explanation wasn't too clear, I don't actually turn the key back to the off position. Only far enough to stop the engine from running. Turning the entire car off would be unsafe. Turning my engine off does not disable any safety features, and if I really need to start back up and accelerate for some reason, I can still do that quickly. I never said I don't get awesome mpg without doing that. It's very similar to what a Prius would get at those speeds. But if I can save some fuel by simply twisting a key, I'm usually going to take that opportunity. Driving 1mph over the speed limit is illegal, but I don't see many people getting pulled over for that. So I'm not too concerned about being issued a ticket for turning my engine off.

Remember what I said before about the torque turbo diesels give and how it eliminates a lot of the need for shifting to get acceptable thrust. So I don't really find the need to shift ahead in my TDI. But with gasoline cars, I'm going to shift ahead anyway as part of how I drive them. So I don't really think of that as a bad thing. I prefer to anticipate and prepare rather than react after the fact.

I focus on the acceleration my body feels in the Highlander. There just seems to be a hesitation in some cases before I start to feel anything. It's kind of like a manual transmission car with turbo lag. If I don't downshift, it takes an instant or two to build up boost before it provides meaningful acceleration. That's what it reminds me of. The turbo lag car doesn't really sound any different once it starts making boost, but I can definitely feel the difference in thrust. The Highlander feels the same way to me.

 

Ok, got it. When the Diesel engine restarts, there is no spark combustion so there is no ware and tare with frequent restarts. The starter may ware out faster though.

Does it make that annoying starter noise like a gas non-hybrid? I don't remember how it sounded (wasn't paying attention) when I test drove Jetta TDI before.

For Sonata hybrid, ISG (Integrated Starter Generator) is slapped together with the gas engine. A clutch sits between the gas engine + ISG and the automatic transmission + traction motor. It will be able to shutdown ICE completely (when BSFC is high) and then power by the battery completely.

It may need to shutdown more frequently due to the step gearbox limitations. This will stress the Li-ion HV battery more than HSD. We'll have to watch the warranty of it carefully. There will be situations where high BSFC is unavoidable and it will result in higher fuel consumption. The ICE is not disconnected from the wheel (like HSD) as it is still bound by the step gears.

 

Restart of manual tranny car in a forced auto stop while moving is typically done via clutch. So the wear is not on the starter but the clutch. Properly done, said wear is minimal. FAS is an advanced technique that is part of hypermiling.

I like the Prius cvt and inherent FAS because it requires only "normal" use of throttle to get pretty darn good mpg while "just driving it."

I also like a manual tranny with FAS technique because those who want to can FAS without a 41/45 mpg limit (why pump the ICE above the stealth limit?) and get astounding fuel economy. In my household, I might meet or beat the Prius with a manual car, but no one else in the house will come close to the Prius.

 

That's right, I do a bump start with the clutch. A diesel sounds pretty much like a gasoline engine when it's cranking. Although at highway speeds with the road and wind noise, the starter can't be heard if I try to start it that way.

 

Hyundai Sonata Hybrid Specs - Review and Test Drive of 2011 Sonata Hybrid - Popular Mechanics

I'm don't understand why a modern 6 speed would need to shut the engine down more than a eCVT. It does appear that the sonata may keep the engine off longer since it does allow electronic operation at higher speeds. The system does appear to use the battery more than the thc. This may help explain the better milage they are getting than the thc. The ICE can be completely disconnected from the transmission through a clutch so I'm not sure why you think hsd is superior in engine off configuration.

 

It is all about BSFC map. Step gearbox will be less flexible in ability to tap the optimal operating line. So, in a certain gear if the engine can't get a good BSFC, it is better to shutdown or loose some MPG. I am guessing Hyundai engineers will take the shutdown path and shift the load to the battery. Eventually that battery will need to be recharged when the gas engine come back up revving.

I hope they air cool it like HSD. There is no indication that the 300,000 miles claim is cell level or pack level result. 10% decrease in capacity sounds good too as 20% decrease is considered end of life in engineering. They left out the internal resistance raised after 300,000 miles. The higher the resistance, the weaker it will get causing it to heat faster and accelerate failure.

 

BSFC maps are flat enough these days that 6-speeds should be plenty to avoid any unnecessary shutdowns until you are at highway speeds...

The eCVT gives you some additional flexibility at city speeds, but it's not like the Toyota eCVT doesn't have to use two motors that end up pushing against each other to hold the desired RPM which also hurts efficiency.

Bah - where's my Nissan Leaf already. No gears and no ICE to worry about.

 

It will have gears... reduction gear! Remember, it is not hub motor. So Leaf will have planetary gear-set as well, in the differential. No ICE, gas tank nor tail pipe (have you noticed?).

 

I meant no gears to worry about shifting (me or the ECU)...

 

There are multiple planetary gearset in that automatic transmission so there will the same "sun gear countering the planet carrier to push the ring gear" actions going on. Mechanical loss from planetary gearsets of Sonata hybrid will be multiple times of Prius.

 

What drees said is especially true with DI engines. The eCVT does have an advantage at low speeds since it can get lower gears. If you want to be hyper efficient you would accellerate up to efficient speed on the motor, and pay the battery back later. The hsd as well as the sonata system can add a generator load to put the engine in a more efficient torque/rpm range. This greater efficiency is gated by the fact that the power must be stored as chemical energy, but maybe in future cars ultracaps can do this more efficiently. The psd should have low mechanical losses but as torque increases some of this must be converted to electrical energy at one motor then back to mechanical energy at another. At low speeds I would expect lower losses in the eCVT. At high speeds lower losses in the Sonata. What speed this changes is anyone's guess, IMHO and not even educated it will be around 45. How well the system is implemented is important on how well it performs.

This is fan assisted air cooling. I would put the 300,000 mile claim right up there with toyota's 400,000 mile claim. I do know that I'm much happier with lithium batteries in my phone, laptop, and ipod than I was with nimh. The trick is really to get to the plug-in.