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Plugin Conversion Options?

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Accessories and Modifications' started by cproaudio, Jul 12, 2010.

  1. cproaudio

    cproaudio Speedlock Overrider

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    Is Enginer kit the only option for Gen III prius? Are there any other company that's working on a kit for the Gen III? How about solar roof?
     
  2. dan2l

    dan2l 2014 Prius v wagon

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    Hi cproaudio,
    I have an Enginer system wife's 2010. I am approved as an Enginer installer.

    So I think the detail behind the answer to your question is that the Enginer system does not modify the Prius software in any way. The 2010 Prius software is different that earlier Prius's. So any PHEV conversion that changes or spoofs that software will not work until the PHEV software is rewritten and fully tested.

    I am sure that all PHEV companies are working on this, but it will take some time and then the bugs will need to be worked out.

    Thanks,
    Dan
     
  3. cproaudio

    cproaudio Speedlock Overrider

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    I am seriously considering the enginer kit. what kind of real world MPG do you get using regular driving method and not hypermiling method? Is the 5000w converter enough to sustain the prius at 45mph?
     
  4. dan2l

    dan2l 2014 Prius v wagon

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    Hi cpro,
    I have kept a running thread on this car over the last 7 months.
    http://priuschat.com/forums/gen-iii...ic-vehicle-installation-in-portland-area.html

    On mileage, I have used the Prius reported trip mpg. I reset it each time I charge the system. Before installing the system I got 55mpg. my wife got 50mpg. On a careful trip with optimization I could get 60pmg but that is the best I could do. All trips included the warm-up and started and ended at my home.

    After the System was installed I consistently got 80mpg on a 55 mile trip that included 55mph on the hyway for more than 1/2 the trip. On shorter trips I could do a little better.

    I have a 3k converter and 4kwhr of batteries. I also always charge the Prius HV batteries to 7 or 8 bars before the trip.

    At 45mph The prius will fire the ICE. At 42mph I can run only on the electric motors. I can hold 42mph (using the ICE only for the initial acceleration from a stop light) for about 5 miles, with the Prius HV battery starting at 7 bars and ending at 3 bars.

    Thanks,
    Dan
     
  5. linuxpenguin

    linuxpenguin Active Member

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    I recently put together a PHEV comparison sheet for the available Gen2 PHEV modifications over on the Gen2 PHEV forum. I'm working on pulling together what little information is available about future Gen3 PHEV systems into a list (albeit a short list) and comparing them with the upcoming Toyota PHV. Hopefully that'll give you some idea what to expect.

    I hope to post the list on the newly formed "Gen3 Toyota PHV" sub-forum under the "Gen III" main forum so feel free to stop by there for more details.

    Andrew
     
  6. Prius42

    Prius42 New Member

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    Link Please.
     
  7. linuxpenguin

    linuxpenguin Active Member

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    I'll post a link here when it's uploaded. I hope to have it up in the next few days--just gotta get a few last details right.

    Andrew
     
  8. cproaudio

    cproaudio Speedlock Overrider

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    The most ideal PHEV system is the PICC but it's just too damn expensive. They want 13,500 installed for the Gen II. That's WAY too much. They're already working on Gen III. With Enginer's 4KW system's price tag of 2495-4495 pending on where and when you purchase, I dont see spending extra 10G for 20 extra EV miles and up to 70MPH EV. With that kind of money might as well hold out for the OEM PHEV. Who knows by that time someone will figure out how to pack more batteries into the OEM PHEV to extend the range to upwards of 50 EV miles.
     
  9. linuxpenguin

    linuxpenguin Active Member

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    Mmm, all true but you get what you pay for. Batteries aren't cheap at this point (not the really good ones anyway) because production simply isn't large enough. PHEV's/EVs aren't likely going to be saving money any time real soon--people are buying them now to reduce emissions, oil consumption and to silently sneak up on people in the dark (not that I've ever done that...)--not to save money. The pay-off period on any PHEV system is likely going to be longer than the life the vehicle (yes, even the cheap systems) unless gasoline hits $8 a gallon (which I believe will happen soon, just not sure if it will be within the life of my vehicle which is already 6 years old).

    Even with the OEM PHV you'll still have the same issue if you want more than 14 miles of EV range. What we need is a significant battery breakthrough to allow for larger capacity at significantly lower production cost. For now, PHEVs are an investment (and hey, people spend $10,000 on far less useful things that never even have the ability to pay for themselves all the time :)).

    I share your desire for cheaper solutions, but for now this is where things are...

    Andrew
     
  10. cproaudio

    cproaudio Speedlock Overrider

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    I wish that Enginer PHEV would use Headway batteries. I've done some math regarding headway batteries' dimensions and weight. You could fit 5kw+ into the current 4KW Enginer case which give you a real 4KW usability. The weight is the same as the 4KW system. Plus headway batteries is rated at 10C discharge which could accumulate up to 10x5KW converter. It could easily supply enough continuous current to power 2 5KW converter. 10KW of power should be enough to sustain the Prius at 40MPH stealth mode. Headway batteries are alittle expensive at $1.7-$2 per AH shipped to US compared to the Enginer's batteries at $1.25 (if you got the kit during their July sale)
     
  11. linuxpenguin

    linuxpenguin Active Member

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    The limiting factor for Enginer is not the batteries (/assuming at least a 4 kWhr system--and according to the manufacturers specs/) it's the DC/DC converter. Sure, you could have multiple converters even with the existing setup (though rumor has it that if you start stacking up the converters you start throwing codes while driving)--but if you're really interested in pursuing maximum EV you probably want either a significantly beefier DC/DC converter (like that of the Hymotion system) or a straight up battery replacement (like PICC) to allow for 100% battery power at all times.

    Enginer's goals are different than that of Hymotion and PICC in the sense that they're trying to provide a more economical approach whereas PICC / Hymotion are trying to deliver a more powerful approach. It's all about what you want / expect from the system and what sort of driving habits you're willing / unwilling to change. There is no right or wrong answer necessarily--it all depends on the end user.

    Frankly, I don't understand how on earth Enginer makes money on their current system since the batteries alone cost almost the price they sell the whole system for--my guess is they get a ridiculously good deal on the existing batteries they use (not to mention dirt cheap assembly / component costs for the rest of their components) which is probably why they use them.

    Andrew
     
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  12. cproaudio

    cproaudio Speedlock Overrider

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    according to Jack he said that although the 2KW kit comes with 5KW converter it wont have enough discharge current to run the 5KW converter efficiently. 4KW barely has enough to run 5KW converter. To run 2 5KW converters I would need to get the 8KW kit. He said to start with a 4KW kit then if I want to add a second 4KW kit he would give it to me for the same price.

    Wouldnt a beefier converter mean a higher output in terms of wattage?

    80ah mottcell is selling at $1.2/ah at LiFePO4 E-bike Battery 48V 80Ah - China LiFePO4 battery pack, rechargeable battery, Lamp battery in Battery, Storage Battery & Charger Then theres shipping charge from China. I'm not sure where other components are bought from. If Enginer is able to make money off the July sale however little it may be, they're able to make another 1K when it's back to original price and another 1K for customers that lives in CA and want the CAR CARB cert and 5 yr warranty. I just hope Enginer as a company will as long as its product's warranty. If Enginer disolves in a year or 2, what good is that 5 year warranty?
     
  13. linuxpenguin

    linuxpenguin Active Member

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    All depends on how much you're willing to draw from the batteries at sustained drain. According to the battery manufacturer the cells can handle higher sustained discharge--but battery manufacturers love to stretch the truth in their datasheets to make their products look good.

    My guess is that Enginer discovered lifespan issues if drained faster than ~5 kW. Plus, that's a lot of current at the higher C rates.

    Since Enginer has access to extremely cheap parts & labor I don't think they're in any financial trouble--otherwise they wouldn't be selling their system for so very cheap I would guess but one never knows.

    Andrew
     
  14. Flaninacupboard

    Flaninacupboard Senior Member

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    If they've had 100 or so orders during the July sale then they've had $49k in deposits, and will have a total income of $249k. I'm sure any battery manufacturer will give some discount for customers ordering in those kind of quantities.

    I do worry however that once all the people -likely- to convert their car have bought a kit that the company will fold. Hopefully they'll continue to revise the product with better batteries, some kind of simple SOC spoof option, more powerful converters, and a display for knowing what the kit's doing. if they could work in a 60mph EV hack on the gen3 as well that would be brilliant.
     
  15. cproaudio

    cproaudio Speedlock Overrider

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    Is Enginer in trouble?

    Did they not have enough pre-orders to full fill their minimum order requirement? They've extended their anniversary sale to Aug 31st. They've put their kit on ebay as auction style instead of buy it now. They made the California CARB requirements optional for CA buyers. Will they deliver the kits as promised by the end of August? I want to know because I've already put a deposit. The auction ended for the first kit at $2245+$250 shipping.
     
  16. Octane

    Octane Proud Member of 100 MPG Club

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  17. linuxpenguin

    linuxpenguin Active Member

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  18. cproaudio

    cproaudio Speedlock Overrider

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    This may be old news but I just noticed that Enginer did another update to its kits. This time they changed the batteries. They're using flatpacks like the Leaf instead of the Mottcell Prismatic cells. http://www.enginer.us/technologies/
     
  19. TheForce

    TheForce Stop War! Lets Rave! Make Love!

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    I wonder how much space they are saving by going to the pouches and what brand? I know the pouches are usually a lot smaller than the same Ah prismatic cells.
     
  20. Flaninacupboard

    Flaninacupboard Senior Member

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    Oh wow, that's really interesting. presumably more cells means higher current, will we now see the converter actually put out 5KW i wonder?