Gen III PHEV Range: You want 40 or 12 miles

Assume 1-mile range = $1000. How many miles does the consumer want? That is the question that is facing automakers right now. (that, and including the weight-size-fuel efficiency penalties too)

[EDIT: Let's try 1-mile range = $300-500. Did I scare anyone?]

Doug Coleman
Prius Product Manager
Toyota Motor Sales, USA

 

Thanks for reply. It must scale down fast, though, since the Leaf is $32k (before rebates) for 100 miles, the Volt 40 miles at about $1000/mile (so you nailed that one). I assume the Prius Plug in tech won't run at $15k, though. Maybe half that (?).

I'm concerned mixing electric range and ICE is just too pricey. The Prius as it is now is truly a remarkable car for the price, it really is.

 

WOW $1000 for ~250 watt hours? That would be expensive. More expensive than the conversions that are available now. The Hymotion system comes in around $500 per 250 watt hours.

 

Doug,
that's quite a mark up. Using the PHEV prius's 2.5 m/kwh capacity, that works out the $2500/kwh. Toyota said $1200 cost, we know ford is paying $750/kwh on their transit connect, and Nissan is claiming they will get under $400/kwh by the end of 2012.

Its time for toyota to honestly get in the game and price range competitively. Screw the CARB 150,000 mile mandate, just warant it for what they think they can do. Maybe 8yr/100,000 miles but don't charge us for 3 battery packs because of a warranty.

 

Sorry folks. Dumb mistake on my part. I'm definitely not the battery expert and I jumped in too soon.

But please keep in mind that PRICE does not equal COST.

Doug Coleman
Prius Product Manager
Toyota Motor Sales, USA

 

I jumped out of my seat !!

 

are you saying total price of car is $3-500. per electric mile capacity? as in car will travel 14 mile electric = $4200. - 7000.? can't be. so on top of standard price as in $24,000 + 42 - 7000 = $28,200 - 31,000.?

 

Can Toyota do a 40 mile PHEV "right" ?

Let us say 10 kwh battery, usable 8kwh. That is between $5,000 and $7,500 in battery cost. But some of that can be got back in tax credit.

So, for a net $5,000 extra cost (to the consumer !), we should be able to get a 40 mile Prius

ps : The much maligned Volt is only $8K more after tax credit compared to a $25K Prius.

 

what is the mpg hit on the hev after the 40 mile phev battery is down, from hauling the extra weight?

 

Not quite fair to compare no tax credit price of standard Prius to full tax credit price of Volt, or Leaf! And $30,000 range for the PHV Prius has been assumed for quite a while.

 

The idea is that with a larger capacity battery, the increases in efficiency due to the extra batteries sharing the load make up for the added weight (and then some). If anything, performance should noticeably improve if the batteries are good.

Andrew

 

PHEV Prius gets tax credit as well.

Not that I'm comparing the price - it is just that people seem to think about the premium over Prius.

BTW, for a long time Volt price was assumed to be around $40k. So why is everyone cribbing about it now ? Leaf's pricing changed the landscape.

 

Thinking outside of the box, a shorter range could be a game changer.

Today's Prius pays a significant warm-up cost. Orange4Boy has shown that a high power, ICE and transaxle heater can bring that 1.5L Prius into Stage-4 nearly as soon as it starts. Even the history of the NHW20 and now ZVW30 improved warm-up cycles show significant improvements. So I'm going to postulate a game changer:

1. Plug-in - should also incorporate a block and transaxle heater option. This avoids the warm-up gas tax. Don't neglect the wheel bearings.
2. Might as well include cabin temperature too.
3. Faster Stage-4 - run the ICE in minimum fuel consumption rate well before it has to end EV mode. Have a default like today but give those who know they are going a longer distance the option to pre-heat the ICE. Let them use ICE fuel consumption in "N" as the target fuel rate to bring the catalytic converters and ICE to operating temperature. The optional, long distance mode could hold the EV in reserve for passing and hill climb power.
4. Engine compartment heat management - treat heat as a valuable resource to not be lost unless necessary. So the power and control electronics may need to be outside of the engine 'thermal' compartment.
5. Active, air inlets - part of both heat management and drag reduction, let the car be as low drag as possible at higher speeds and in cooler weather.
6. Optional wheel well covers - another way to reduce high-speed, aerodynamic drag.

Think outside the box and the Prius PHEV can step up the game. The target MPG should be 60 for a fleet average and that is feasible.

Bob Wilson

 

thank you andrew, but my question is, on a trip longer than the battery capacity, (say you go 100 miles before opportunity to plug in) how much of a hit will mpg take from the extra weight of the plug in battery compared to a standard prius? am i clear? i think i'm confusing myself! thanks,
paul.

 

heh, no we're talking about the same thing. With a larger capacity battery (IE: if one replaced their stock battery with a 40 mile range battery) it will generally have a higher efficiency rating than a lower capacity battery even once depleted (more batteries means less energy losses generally). That means that even once you run out of battery power with the plugin battery it will still have a much higher efficiency rating than the stock OEM battery would. The efficiency gains you get will generally at least compensate for the added weight--with really good batteries they can even produce a noticeable increase in mileage even in charge sustain (hybrid) mode. It depends how good the batteries are that are used.

This logic doesn't apply as much to the Toyota prototype PHV because the battery it switches to for standard hybrid driving is roughly the same capacity (size) as the current Nickel battery used in Priuses in production now. The new battery is at least a higher voltage though so there are some efficiency gains there.

Andrew

 

bingo! that's where i was losing you, i was only thinking about the toyota. good thing you added that line. now i understand your logic, thanks again!