Honda 'Fix' for Civic Hybrid Wrecks Gas Milage

This could be the reason why HCH sales were bottoming out.

The issue I have with the software fix is that, the damage has been done due to the initial flaw, reducing the life of the HV pack. Correcting the flaw now may just last up to the warranty period. After the warranty is over, the owners are on their own.

This is really bad for Honda. Some media may spin this and drag Toyota hybrid in as well.

 

I wonder if it is feasible to use 22 2G battery modules as a substitute for the Honda battery which has a nominal 158V rating?

 

Honda HV battery cells are cylindrical but Prius cells are prismatic. I would think HCH cooling was designed for cylindrical so it is unlikely to work.

 

Gee... its stuff like this that is beginning to make me hesitate recommending PriusChat to new Prius owners in my area.

In other words, my experience alone says that the IMA system while not as good as HSD in an urban environment, is certainly not garbage. And in addition to having the extensive experience I have with both systems, I can not reject such allegations enough with regret and disgust.

With regards to the topic of this thread:

While these software updates may contribute to some MPG loss for some HCH-II owners - these updates also have the effect of boosting the MPG 's for many of us who have long asked for the very features this latest batch of updates includes.

If you are a defensive and safe driver, an eco-driver or hypermiler you will certainly love these updates and the good stuff they have to offer.

Poorly researched news stories in addition to allegations that conveniently leave out the full spectrum of truth, should be rejected for the harm they do to our goal to promote the acceptance and proliferation of the cleanest hybrid technologies.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

Um, it is garbage. The whole concept behind Honda's hybrid system is nothing when you compare it to toyota. It has not been improved at all since 1999. Its the same basic concept that has yielded an impressive 60mpg insight to a 41mpg insight.

Gas Engine Assists Electric Motor: Toyota
Electric Motor Assists Gas Engine: Honda

Toyota prius beats the Honda Insight (its direct competitor) by a whopping 10mpg combined.

Honda Hybrid Engines still utilize drive belts and a belt driven a/c compressor, reducing efficiency. Hell, even non-hybrids are now implementing electric power steering pumps and a/c systems.

Regret and disgust? get over it. Don't be so sensitive. That's like me crying and my stomach turning every time i see a news report that bashes the priuses. Guess what? Those braking problems were real, its the reason toyota issued an ECU update. So don't blame these civic hybrid battery failures on bad reporting, they are happening. Its the way the honda hybrid system is designed. It is designed to fully discharge and fully recharge the hybrid battery. While Honda hybrid owners are replacing their batteries every 5 years, Prius owners have gone 100k+ miles and still have a healthy battery.

Look at it on paper, and compare the two. Even the ford hybrid system is better than Hondas...and that's just pathetic. Lets not worry about people looking down on hybrids because of this...If Honda (and Toyota) would design their hybrid systems to be as reliable as traditional gas cars, then people would jump in...the technology isn't perfect, but Toyota has had FAR LESS problems with hybrids than Honda. I mean Honda is practically giving up on the hybrid. They got rid of the accord hybrid while Toyota is putting it in Camrys, Highlanders...even Lexuses have and are getting more hybrid models. Honda seriously needs to get their game together, and stop relying on their fans to make excuses for them.

 

Your response has only managed to significantly add to the inaccuracies that I don't even know where to begin.

Like many here at priusChat have long known (but you clearly do not), you would also know that I am as much of a Toyota fan as I am a Honda fan... with just enough ownership and community experience on both to know what I am talking about.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

OK: how about providing a source that explains the software updates and how some drivers can be positively impacted while others are negatively impacted, with respect to mpg?

 

The phenomina may be visible in the user mileage reports:

	Column 1	Column 2	Column 3	Column 4
0	low	average	high	year
1	38	44.8	55	2005 (11)
2	30	45.3	72	2006 (114)
3	29	43.2	68	2007 (65)
4	38	46.3	64	2009 (14)

An interesting dip in the low MPG user, 06-07 Honda Civic hybrids. They also have a relative higher performance of the highest MPG user.

Bob Wilson

 

The prius isn't a luxury car last time i checked? What is luxury and what should be standard are subjective. Do people expect power windows in their cars? its 2010! The US Base model does have maplights, seatback pockets, vanity mirrors... Remember air conditioning used to be a luxury feature, automatic transmissions...etc. The fact that Toyota is offering these standard while Honda does not says something. Or the more advanced options that are not standard, at least they are optional and buyers have a choice to get them if they wanted. I would probably consider buying an insight because of the lower cost, but things like smart key systems, 6-speaker audio, CRUISE CONTROL, things like that make the overall driving experience a whole lot better.

TCS/VDC is standard on all Toyota Models sold in the US. Apparently on the insight, it is not standard.

Sure, the insight's main point was to cut costs and make a hybrid affordable. But there is a reason why Toyota hasn't sold a Prius I in the US. Once you lower the bar too far, you lower the overall brand image. As for an affordable hybrid, i think more priuses are sold in the US than insights. In fact, i heard the amount of priuses Toyota sells in the US alone exceeds the # of insights Honda sells worldwide. (160k or so units)

 

I may very well be wrong, but isn't Ford's system very similar to that of Toyota? How is that "pathetic"? Honestly, just looking for an answer...
~T

 

The Ford system is very similar to Toyota's, but a couple of generations back.

Tom

 

This article has really nothing to do with Honda versus Toyota, or any other manufacturer. It has everything to do with high energy density battery technology and the developments that are needed to ensure its reliability and consistency. Who manufactures the battery for Honda anyway?

It is early days yet in that department. A decade from now I am sure improvements will happen. This run is a marathon folks; there is a lot of work still to be done, and everything has to start someplace.

It has taken over 100 years for the ICE to reach is current state and it is about tapped out technologically.

 

The article is mostly about whether Honda will honor its warranty obligations with respect to the Civic hybrid traction battery.

 

This is the point. Honda uses a type of battery that is less reliable. I'm sure they'd love to use a different type, but what with Toyota owning the manufacturer of their own batteries and holding key patents they can't.

They've been caught out on their battery management's ability to deal with extreme conditions so they've updated the software to protect the battery at some cost to mpg. I expect another update to come will improve performance again.

Of course the problem's been exacerbated by a failure to keep cars' software up-to-date. That's a mix of Honda not pushing and dealers not caring.

So now the problems put pressure on Honda to replace batteries that have been damaged. That's costly and again, a mix of the attitudes of dealers and Honda are making them look bad.

Fortunately the near future will see them shift to lithium and I'm sure they're very keen to move so they won't have to suffer their NiMH problems too much longer.

 

I don't think this debate needs to spin off into to an arguement of who is a Prius Fanboy, a Honda Fanboy.

I certainly am not Anti-Honda. I own a Honda. But the truth is bad news and headlines for Honda Hybrids...is bad news for all hybrids.

The other truth is there are huge fundamental and basic differences in what Honda defines and markets as a hybrid...IMA and what Toyota defines as a Hybrid and markets...HSD.

Toyota's system IS more of a Electric Motors being assisted by gasoline engine blend of power creation.

Honda's is what they have always called it...it's the integration of a rather weak electric motor, to "assist" their engine.

Hey it's truth in advertising...Toyota IS hybrid synergy..and Honda IS Motor Assist. But I think what we are seeing is that unfortunately for Honda, their system evidently has conditions that can mean it does not age as well as Toyota's. This isn't really new, these complaints have been circulating for a while.

I feel for Honda Hybrid owners that are suffering early in life battery failure if Honda decides to answer the problem by simply making their Hybrid less electric by changing the software. That sucks.

I could go on further and speculate that IMO..my opinion is that it indicates that perhaps Honda DOES need to re-evaluate, and evolve their entire Hybrid approach.

But if I was going to make a blanket statement I'd say this sucks for everyone. With Ford, Honda, soon Hyundai, all slowly and conservatively dipping their toes into marketing a hybrid...if you are a champion of the idea, then you want ALL manufacturers to do it at least- mostly right. I've always given Honda great kudos right alongside Toyota with being among the FIRST with a hybrid product and technology...but the playing field is changing. A history of being one of the first must give way to the present of being one of the best. Honda cannot afford to market Hybrids that aren't good. It hurts themselves...and everyone trying to sell a hybrid.

Prius Chat faithful are more in the know than the general public. Most of this crowd know the differences major and minor between systems. But when you get headlines like Hybrid-Failing Batteries and statements of falling gas mileage? That hurts everyone. Including Nissan and Chevy with VOLT. Because most of the general public not following Hybrids and Electrics only see the big words...Battery Fail-Mileage Drop-Hybrid.

Toyota, Honda and Hybrids have come a long way the past 15 years. But for most people Hybrids are still considered that "other choice" and the ignorance about what they are, and how they work is still pretty amazing. I'd hope that would mean all manufacturers are careful about what they are building and marketing and badging as a hybrid...because failure for one, hurts them all.

That is I think unarguable reality. The debate starts when you look at the long term viability of Honda's IMA as it currently exists. Toyota and HSD have raised the standards and results, the definition of Hybrid. Honda as always is free to pursue different avenues and technology and application, infact with patents in play they almost MUST. But what Honda cannot afford to do is stand pat. Software changes to a system that was already seeming dated and already falling behind the results and capabilities of HSD is not a long term answer for Honda. That's not me being a Prius Fanboy, that's just reality.

 

I'm not anti-Honda either. My mom has one. They are great cars, generally better than what comes out of detroit but is made in mexico or canada.

But, this article has pointed out a big flaw in the hybrid systems of Honda. "Normal" drivers are reporting lower MPGs with this "fix" while battery life continues to deteroriate, problems unheard of on a prius or any other toyota hybrid.

 

1. Will the Honda Civic Hybrid US EPA mileage ratings and CA AT-PZEV emissions rating be adversely affected by the software changes discussed in the LA Times article cited in the OP?

2. Suppose you have a Civic Hybrid whose traction battery has deteriorated, but not sufficiently for a DTC to be logged and qualify for a warranty replacement. When this car is put through the US EPA mpg test, will the results be worse than the current rating of 42 mpg combined?

If the answer to either question above is "yes", then it would seem that the owners of those vehicles have good reason to complain, since objective measures of vehicle performance are impaired.

If no, then I would say that the software changes could be justified. Can anyone point to Honda documentation which would shed light on the answers to these Qs?

 

Well yea .... except that in the here and now, when you're up to your nice person in alligators, as Honda appears to be with the Civic hybrid, it is sometimes difficult to remember that your original intention was to drain the swamp!