Honda 'Fix' for Civic Hybrid Wrecks Gas Milage

Not only MPG but acceleration should be considered as well. I hope 0-60 time does not go up from 11-12 seconds to 13-14 seconds.

 

Too bad for Honda. I hope that they take the time and effort to re-engineer their hybrid system, learning from their past experience.

Competition brings out the best in products. (Unfortunately, it also brings out the worst in human beings.)

Keith

 

While I am not at the liberty of disclosing my professional connections (past and present), I will say that for the last four years I have been releasing notice of these software updates to the HCH-II community well ahead of their release into the dealer technical channels.

All service bulletins along with the numerous software updates released since 2006 are also available at CleanMPG so that owners of these Honda hybrids may be aware of the benefits provided by these updates.

When announcing these updates I fully describe what their intended purpose and the benefits they offer not only to the general public but also to those who like to dwell in the 70-90MPG areas.

Lastly, to reassure the HCH-II owner base that these software updates are safe, I have applied every single software ever released (including this latest batch) to my own cars. I have done it this way to provide proof and part numbers for anyone who wants their dealer to do the same.

Cheers;

MSantos

 

Are details of the underlying technical problems known ? I try to keep peripherally informed about IMA, and know that early generation premature battery failures were ascribed to software that let aggressive drivers (typically hypermilers) repetitively drain the battery DOD down to levels that shortened battery life. I am under the impression that was fixed around the time the Civic Hybrid came out.

What is the problem now ?

I'm just wondering now -- if the smaller motor in the Insight II was not in retrospect a battery protection choice rather than a cost cutting measure we all presumed.

 

Is that why the Ford Fusion Hybrid beats the Toyota Camry Hybrid at it's own game?

 

Many people have wondered how the IMA comes close to HSD results despite what seems an inferior design.

Be careful what you wish for

 

Actually in real life the FFH doesn't beat the TCH in real world fuel economy, if so only by a smidge. The key difference between the two vehicles today is the ICE.

Ford now uses its new modern 2.5L ICE along with an updated hybrid system in the new model which arrived two yrs ago. Toyota still is using the older 2.4L ICE designed in the 90s along with the THS from 2006.

The new Camry and TCH are due in Spring of 2011. Expect updated results in this leapfrog competition at that time.

 

FFH seem to stress the smaller HV battery with higher EV speed. We will have to see long-term result of that strategy.

 

While it is capable of higher EV speeds - that doesn't indicate that it puts more load on the battery.

See this image from a MotorTrend comparison between the Camry and Fusion:

Toyota Camry Hybrid Ford Fusion Hybrid Rpm Vs Speed Graph Photo 31

You can see that while the Fusion is cable of 47 vs 40 mph on EV only - the rate of acceleration is very small.

And actually, the Camry is capable of higher peak acceleration under EV mode - 0.2g compared to ~0.16g. Below ~37mph or so, the Camry is capable of higher EV only acceleration than the Fusion.

Back on topic:

I suspect that people who are seeing a decline in fuel economy after apply the latest ECU updates to their Civic Hybrids already have a battery pack that is starting to fail and showing significantly reduced capacity - probably due to a weak cell or two.

 

Found a reasonably technical description of the HCH problem thanks to a posting at Ecomodder:

Honda's fix for prematurely dying Civic hybrid batteries hurting fuel economy, performance? — Autoblog

I hadn't seen this chart before but it does a good job of showing the energy flow. The chart style might help explain what is going on in our Prius.

Bob Wilson

 

IMA does not even come close to HSD. Honda has relied on slightly better ICE engine design vs Toyota in its hybrids and even that is coming to an end. I really was hoping to see more from Honda but each new hybrid from Honda is more disappointing then the last.

The new CRZ is a joke. Ford and Toyota keep advancing their hybrid systems while Honda does not. Honda needs to start fresh.

 

My recollection of the database that used to be at greenhybrid.com is that the IMA median was within 10% of the Prius.

 

Correct, the original but now frozen database:
Hybrid Mileage Database - GreenHybrid

Today the EPA web site somewhat fills the gap: Fuel Economy

	Column 1	Column 2	Column 3	Column 4	Column 5
0	min	average	max	model
1	29	45.0	70	2008 Honda Civic Hybrid	58 vehicles
2	32	46.4	62	2008 Prius	118 vehicles

Statistically significant counts although detailed records of individual vehicles are not available.

I understand Fuelly | Share and Compare Your MPG can do a similar analysis but I'm not skilled with that database. For my own records, I use http://www.myhybridcar.com but there are only two NHW11s.

Bob Wilson

 

I trust EPA ratings, I do not trust manually entered by end user MPG data. People have to much pride in their own cars to have that work honestly. While the EPA is just estimate it is based on a standardized testing protocol. The current version of it seems to be quite accurate for the average driver. A good driver can usually beat the EPA in almost any vehicle.

The EPA city rating for the Prius 2008 is 60mpg, the Honda Civic hybrid 2008 40mpg. Its not even close to 10%

I wonder what the EPA rating would be on the Civic hybrid AFTER the fix.

 

Your numbers are wrong.

2004-2009 Prius is 48/45/46 City/Hwy/Combined
2006-2010 Civic is 40/4542 City/Hwy/Combined

The user reported data on fueleconomy.gov is ~45mpg for the Civic and ~46mpg for the Prius.

 

honestly that 46 mpg combined for the gen II is a load of crap. I think everyone here gets 50+ mpg.

 

Nope, it's spot on for me after 40k miles of driving the Prius. Other people I know get similar.

 

I average over 50MPG over 132,000 miles so far so good.

 

I am sorry, I got them at the same website that was referenced.

Hybrid Mileage Database - GreenHybrid

Upper right corner, EPA official #'s listed. They are correct #'s, just from the last version of the EPA test that was more full hybrid friendly.

 

I don't. My lifetime average is around 46 mpg. When I lived in CA, only a small part of my route was conducive to pulse and glide and I drove somewhat fast on the freeway w/the 65 mph speed limit (usually would do ~66 to 75 mph). My daily commute was about ~50 miles/day, round trip.

Now, it's falling since I moved to WA due to colder weather and my very short commute. Now it's all city driving and <8 miles/day total (haven't checked exactly) including up a steep long hill in the morning and usually going down that hill in the evening (sometimes hitting 80% SOC and the car kicking itself into B mode by firing up the ICE). I'm now lucky to break 40 mpg on a tank.