Argonne nuts on diesel?

Bob

Not sure if you have any experience working at DOE facilities like Argonne, Oak Ridge, Sandia, Livermore, etc

These facilities actually have many sub-cores of competency, and as a reflection of early Cold War security (Compartmentalized information, need-to-know, etc) the different sub-cores really don't know what the others are up to

One very small component of ANL is examining diesel cars because they have received various funding sources to do so. Ok, so what is the problem?

ORNL received funding to literally reverse-engineer a 2004 Prius, and they had a generally favorable report about the car.

The various DOE labs that formerly developed thermonuclear weapons, delivery systems, separation techniques, enrichment and reactor designs, are indeed highly political. This is true of anything associated with or funded by various governments

If Obama were to announce that the "future" is clean diesel technology, you can bet the various former Cold War research sites would suddenly "preach the gospel" of that statement

Just the way it is

But let's wait for all the research to come out before casting judgement. These various labs have a solid cadre of engineers, scientists, and techs

jay

 

Bob, you are going to drive yourself crazy and/or need to start drinking heavily if you are going to read the comments left on any 'net article or YouTube video. There is a collective stupidity that uses the internet as its own personal sounding board. :madgrin:

 

Last time I checked with my liver, that was MY job

 

Funny, but when I thought of potential liver donors you popped into my head.

 

C'mon jayman ... share the weath

Nothining wrong with cleaning up oil burnin' diesels so they pollute way less ... and nothing wrong with running 'em on french fry oil ... but it's still baffling to me. Oil has more energy per gallon than gas, and so when you factor in their 40-ish mpg's ... the generally higher cost of the refined oil that they run on ... I don't see what the big deal is. Aren't their mpg numbers a wash, once you factor all the variables in?

 

Just curious, how about the emissions for the same four models? Especially emissions per mile given the mpg numbers quoted...

 

Hi Bob, not sure I understand why you brought this topic up, but do you consider promoting diesels a bad thing? If the article gets somebody to try a Jetta TDI instead of a Jetta 2.5, or an A3 TDI instead of an A3 2.0T, then it has done us a favor IMO.

 

A couple of observations of my own.

While have diesel cars been virtually banned in the US until about a year ago, yet in North Texas I see diesel doolies all over? You can be assured many of these trucks are NOT commercial vehicles.

Diesel may not be the perfect fuel, but is it worse than ethanol?

 

In my area a lot of general contractors purchased large F-350-type diesel pickups during the Bush era due to hefty tax breaks to stimulate small business. Sadly very few of these trucks saw any heady duty work. Instead they were shod with very expensive 24" wheels and used to house large stereo/video systems and tow ski boats to the lake or delta.

 

No no, don't misunderstand, I'm all for trying everything and seeing what shakes out as best. Last fall for example I was incredibly impressed with my daughter's new school bus - the diesel emissions control was so good I couldn't see anything coming out of the tail pipe. 2010 Emissions & SCR Technology of Thomas Built Buses
I just think we need to keep an eye on the total price of all these choices. It's not just mpg, purchase price and total cost of ownership.

- D

 

Bob, if you really think our posts at GreenCar.com are simply 'diesel advocacy' then you must not visit the site regularly. Articles on GreenCar.com, and in our print Green Car Journal, always present a balance between the vehicles, fuels, and technologies at play. The three most recent posts on clean diesel were timed to coincide with our Green Car of the Year Tour activity at Argonne National Laboratory, which largely had a clean diesel focus because our spotlight was on the Audi and VW 2010 and 2009 Green Car of the Year winners. The GCOY winners in the three previous years were hybrids.

This brief snapshot of three recent postings does not reflect our historic approach to this field. Take a closer look and you'll see that most of the articles in recent months have focused on electric drive in one form or another, with some also discussing efficiencies, advanced internal combustion, and other alternative fuels.

We do believe that clean diesel is an important consumer option now and in the years ahead, just as we believe that electric drive -- and possibly other alternative fuels -- are part of the answer. We are not advocating. We are educating because that is our mission.

While clean diesel was the primary emphasis at this Green Car of the Year Tour at Argonne National Laboratory, Argonne's researchers also shared details with media about the depth of their work that included electric drive and other activities.

By the way, the value of clean diesel is not just in commercial applications. Try driving a clean diesel passenger vehicle like the Audi A3 TDI or VW Jetta TDI and you'll see why. It may not be the vehicle for you, but it certainly has proven to be for many others, just as the Prius has proven the ideal vehicle for many thousands of buyers. We have always advised that people should get behind the wheel of the various vehicles that could fit their needs and environmental sensibilities...and then make the choice that fits best.

That's not diesel advocacy. It just makes sense.

 

DOE funded a large program to develop cleaner diesel fuel and vehicles that use it--successfully. Argonne NL was a big player, so showcasing there makes sense. Castigating them for not doing everything simultaneously makes no sense--they do what they are funded to do. As mentioned, there are other Energy labs that pursue other cool things, including NREL.

Today new diesel vehicles have hugely lower emissions, including, as someone mentioned about a school bus, no visible soot. But since diesel engines are very, very long-lived, the evolution to the technology will take time.

In Europe, new-diesel passenger cars are very popular, and fuel is as available as gas. So every little town has a mechanic who knows what to do. If I lived there (in my dreams), I would consider one.

There is no single Holy Grail, so let all these technologies contribute.

 

"clean diesel"...more green washing. Good...but not near as clean as a Prius. c'mon...the "smokescreen" is laughable.

I can applaud the effort, especially in big trucks/buses/the like...but really, not as green...not even CLOSE, when passenger vehicles are compared.

 

Hi Bob, et al,

I visited the Argonne Open House transporation tent. Talking with the various scientists and engineers, I think I did detect a bit of diesel leanings. But, also these guys are looking at the bigger transportation fuels issues, like ships, trains, and construction equipment (Case/IH is literally 5 miles from Argonne, and Catepillar is very big in Illinois, headquarted in Peoria, with production as close to Argonne as Aurora -25 miles), too.

One guy was heavily working on how to steer the reaction radicals to minimize NOX. He had chains and chains of sub-reactions he was working with , he said. And with some work he was hoping to reduce NOX by steering the subreactions a certain way.

Of course NOX is the big issue in making Diesels on parity with Prius fuel economy in the US.