Odometer fraud on my new Certified Pre-owned Prius.

Hello Pat, Normally your logic is impeccable, but this time your off track. We do not know the real original condition of the vehicle, its real value at time of sale, the exact tradeoff losses incurred, nor do we know what the extent of real monetary loss might be by this fraudulent sale ( if it was ). So using any kind of dollar losses is totally speculative. AND does not add to the injured partys required ammunition. Your last para. is definitely correct BUT, that's ancient history now.

 

The dealer will lie to you!

 

I see: you didn't have to go into all the specifics, but I now understand why Brad cosigned OK, give the dealership the benifit of the doubt and configure the 2007 prius at 71,900 miles. Retail value option for the 2007 is right. Now see what KBB gives you for a trade in value for the 2010.
Subtract $16,460 - BB trade in value. See if that was close to the asking price. Is that close to the loan's principle amount?

If all that gells, then you can rule out being overcharged. I agree about not going to the dealer just yet. Go to the regional Toyota and see what they say about what you see on Toyotaownersclub

 

Dealer's service record is not always reliable. The other day I took my car to Sam's club for new tires, they put the trip A mileage (8786.7) as the odometer reading (87867).

I suggest to get a Carfax record and check if the mileage record matches the dealers service record before taking legal action.

 

Which entries were over 82k? Are all those entries on the same date? Perhaps its a data entry error?

 

I too thought about a data entry error.

I agree with Patrick's overall logic (without arguing for or against his actual figures): If I was committing fraud, I'd want the greatest possible return, while still keeping the mileage realistic, to justify the risk.

Lawyers and other experts in the field, correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think odometer fraud would be relatively easy to prove. In Virginia -- and I assume in other states as well -- the old owner records the mileage on the title when s/he signs it over to a new owner. Even if the dealer is predisposed to fraud, it seems far-fetched that the dealer would recruit a co-conspirator (the previous owner) to falsify the mileage and that s/he would participate.

Instead of initially confronting the dealer in an accusatory way, my tendency would be simply to ask about the discrepancy and see how they respond.

 

It sounds like there are a number of extraneous things being discussed - the trades, the condition of the car when you picked it up, etc. None of these really matter when it comes to the subject of the thread - the odometer. Pull a carfax and see what it says - it sounds at least likely that what you see in the service records is a data entry error.

If there is a discrepancy also with the carfax start getting your ducks in a row - and do it right away. Keep copies of everything and take notes of all of your interactions and try and keep the issue focused on the odometer - it just confuses the issue and does not help your argument.

 

I have my doubts that a carfax is the silver bullet. I mean, how is carfax going to keep track of mileage on the car? The only way is through the data that any garage reports to them - equally suspect to any data entry issues that may have resulted.

That said, the only way I know of "changing" the mileage is replacing the circuit board that controls the speedometer display with another used one.

 

I've never heard of any lemon laws that would apply to this case.

Lemon laws are for relatively new low-mileage cars that have excessive need for repairs. Cars with 70+k miles, or with no repeated repair problems, are not covered.

 

I suspect that as well. Carfax might be good for making sure there was no body work done with the car, but I don't know how reliable it is for regular car servicing. I also suspect it would be a similar thing if you did manage to see a copy of the car's title. More then likely, this car had just one other owner, and they too could have been financing through Toyota (where although the loan itself originates from the regional Toyota, the dealership is handling the paperwork).

If you have any suspicions about the dealership, I think you first should see what the originator of the loan says (since they're a Toyota branch, they should be able to say if it's a data entry problem or not).

 

That's true...I thought about that more when I had some sleep. It was late at night when I was posting But it still seems odd that this loan is for $10k when the OP was trading a new Gen III for a used, high mileage Gen II Prius. There might not be a legal case, since both parties seem accountable (the dealer for not keeping good records, the OP's dad for taking this loan). If I were in this situation, I'd found out my real debt and talk with the originator of the loan.

But, at any rate, @ That Prius Car, I hope this proves a learning experience in value. From various posts I've learned that you (on your dad's behalf for some reason), have owned a Gen II Prius....traded it in for a new Gen III Prius....only to trade that in for a used Gen II Prius. Your dad is racking up more loans and having to pay more interest on your behalf. If I were him, I'd really study this loan and see if there's any way out of it. If not, pay it off as quickly as possible....and no more car buying!!! Just 16 and you've already had 3 cars I saw you also post that you'd like to buy a Prius when they become pluggable...my financial advice is don't do it! Keep driving whatever car you have until it finally dies. By that point you might have some money saved for a better new car.

 

Getting a poor deal from a dealer or lender isn't actionable unless some law was broken. The only thing I have seen claimed by the OP that might be actionable is odometer fraud.

Patrick raised a good point though, why would a dealer fudge an odometer by such a small amount? It just doesn't make sense.

As far as getting a lawyer involved goes, unless the lawyer works for free, the lawyers fees will quickly exceed any amount the dealer might have to pay for the relatively small difference in car value.

Probably the dealer could be forced to take the car back if fraud was proven and also be required to unwind the loan and refund any loan expenses. Unless the real goal here is to get the dealer to take the car back, that hardly makes sense.

 

It might not be legally actionable, but usually the lender wants to hear any questions if you have financial troubles and might have to default on the loan. I agree that seeing a lawyer should be the last alternative. To me there are two options here: there might be fraud if you can prove odometer tampering.....or you might still be able to negotiate with the lender to see if you can get a better loan. Hard, certainly since the mistake has already been made, but it doesn't hurt to ask.

That's why I think it's best just to approach Toyota regional HQ and find out more about what the Toyotaownersclub data means. They're also the lender, so you can see if they're concerned over this particular dealership or they have a valid reason for the OD discrepency in the Toyotaownersclub data.

 

Carfax may or may not be, but it does offer some additional info on mileage that could help. Here in PA mileage info is given to the state DMV twice a year - once when renewing the registration (reported by the owner and therefore less reliable) and once by the service station performing the state inspection.

I suggested pulling one as it is an easy and inexpensive first step - one that I would definitely do before even thinking of calling a third party (Toyota, financing co, lawyer, etc). I understand that it could very well provide a definitive answer either way, or be inconclusive, but either way it would be the first step I'd make if I did not feel comfortable just calling the dealership and asking which is how I figure the OP feels as otherwise there would be no point to this thread.

 

The world is an imperfect place, and data entry issues are pretty common.

I bought a new motorcycle in October a few years ago. When I got the title, I was surprised to see it listed the bike as having 10,155 miles on it at the time of purchase. Someone, either at the dealer or the DMV, had inserted the date of purchase (10/15/05) in the odometer blank. It was "interesting" trying to get that straightened out.

 

Don't leave us hanging, what happened?