Hyundai's 2011 Sonata Heaps Hurt on Other Hybrids

Just don't bother to go to a Hyundai dealer in Canada. They know nothing about it, have no brochures, and no cost figures.

It'll be a while before it "blows the other hybrids away". You are discussing something that isn't yet sold!

Oh, and it's a gas guzzler compared to a Prius.

 

Example:

Put a 10 amp batttery charger on a stardard 12 volt car battery and now turn on the (2x60W)high beams...

Are you charging the battery or simply powering the high beams...?

 

Well .... we shall see.

I recall the advanced press re the Volt ... 230 mpg; all sorts of miss information about the drive train, emissions, range and etc.

Let the 2011 Sonata make an appearance, and get a few miles on the design. Then we can evaluate the hype, and how much "hurt" is "heaped" from the machine, and the design.

 

What your really talking about here is the difference in transmissions between hsd and 6-speed + motor + engine. Both can provide the same net power from the motor (s) and engine and can charge the batteries or drain them. The rpm ranges will be different, the 6 speed will shift, and the torque bands will be different. Some people will prefer the feel of the 6 speed, others will prefer the eCVT. Toyota has had 10 years to improve its hsd, and its hyundai's first shot, but they also have no doubt taken apart and driven hybrids to play catch up. We will know soon how well they did.

You shouldn't forget the battery. Hyundai should be able to more aggressively use the lithium battery. It should be better technology but until they are out in the field awhile no one will really know. Popular science ran an article with the tech information, and this will be a "full" hybrid, just different than the toyota approach. Hyundai said in that article that when toyota developed the prius, electronics were not sophisticated enough to do what they are doing with the clutch. They also plan a plug-in version in 2012. The Infiniti hybrid M and bmw active hybrid 5 are doing similar things so it may just be technology enabling the construction of these cars. We will soon know if the new approach is as good as the old.

 

CVT allows the engine to be driven along a good fuel efficiency line over the graph pwr-rpm, while 6 speed does not (inevitably some bad FE rpm/throttle is used).

 

Hyundai is an excellent company led by engineers--some of whom are MIT graduates.
The President of SKorea is the former CEO of Hyundai--an MIT engineer. You can bet they will have a hybrid competitive with Toyota and Honda--and cheaper.

 

Engine BSFC curves are usually pretty flat - with 6 appropriately chosen gears you have already quickly reached the point of diminishing returns by adding more ratios.

In Hyundai's case - developing a CVT would only increase the cost (have read that they saved at least $1500 car by using an existing transmission) while providing minimal additional fuel economy gains.

 

Hi All,

Two motors provide an electric torque converter function. That is, the engine can run at much higher RPM and power than the gearing would permit. A 6 speed gear box reduce the advantage from this. but introduces 2 extra shift delays. The DSG gearboxes reduce the shifting time dramatically though. I imagine Hyundai figured they were going to do the 6 speed trans for the main car, so why not just use it. Its this logic that the Prius has avoided, and what makes it truely a ground up hybrid. The torque converting function also allows use of the Atkison Miller-Valve-Train engine. One can imagine that the cost of MG1 is similar to the cost of all the extra gears in 6 speed transmission. By avoiding doing MG1 they avoid overhead of making a MG1 production capability. But at the expense of fuel economy (larger engine for acceleration spec, not capable of using Atkinson engine, Not capable of running a specific designed load curve).

Hyundai could make a torque-converting hybrid with a simple mod. Put MG1 on the front of the engine, or on the clutch side of the ICE. While this would not allow power combining (Engine and MG2), it would provide MG2 with lots of extra torque, and prolong battery life. And allow for a smaller engine for the same acceleration. It would make the car a series/parallel hybrid, but without a mixed mode like the Prius can do.

 

The hyundai also uses an atkinson engine. The battery provides power for the motor to provide the extra torque at low speeds. Because of the electronics the automatic in the hyundai does not need a slush box inefficient torque converter, the motor does the work, and should make the shifts fast and smooth. The engine also employs DI so it likely is more efficient than the similar toyota engine in the tch and hs250. I don't think it uses egr as the prius does though which helps at lower loads. The six speed will have slight power gaps at shift points so more power is needed for equal acceleration times, but there is no reason to believe this is less efficient. In a shift, the motor will not disengage from the engine, only the transmission, the other clutch is to switch into and out of EV mode. Both will run more efficiently off the battery at low power levels. Toyota because of its yin and yang motors must have more motor power than used, so the over kill goes both ways. hsd has fewer moving parts and has been out longer. double clutch transmission hybrids should be easier to spread across a product line and make small improvements to, for instance dropping in a turbo engine, or more powerful motor and batteries.

The hyundai set up has all the power assist that the toyota hybrids do. For the same cost and weight of that unnecessary motor, they could add a bigger battery and a plug, which would likely make it more efficient ;-) Oh yeah they are planning to do that about the same time as the phv prius.

 

Also, every gear change you loose time/fuel between different ratios.
Summing (nevertheless) minor losses, you get something at the end.

E-CVT from HSD is the better solution ever made.

 

Hyundai probably didn't want to pay any royalties to Toyota for their HSD. So they invented their own. By the sound of it, this is what Honda's IMA should have been like all along. With the clutch allong full EV mode, this might be a good candidate for a plug-in hybrid conversion.

being that I've owned a 1st and 2nd generation Insight, as well as 2x 1st and 2x 2nd generation Prius, I think I can speak very unbiased.

If the vehicle gets the same fuel economy, does it really matter which hybrid is a "full" hybrid and which one is an "assist?" My 2nd Gen Insight actually got better fuel economy than my current 2008 Prius. (despite the EPA numbers that suggest the opposite) The only reason I switched cars is because I decided that I wanted to do a Plug-In hybrid and the Prius was better suited for that.

The only other real advantage the Prius has over the Insight is dealing with stop-and-go traffic jams. With the Insight the engine has to constantly start and stop just to inch the car ahead every now and then. Also the air-conditioner in the Prius is electric, which again helps in stop-and-go. However, the air-conditioner is not necessarily tied to the type of hybrid system. In fact, somebody recently mentioned that the Honda Civic Hybrid has an electric air conditioning compressor too.

So the IMA has the advantage of being cheaper as well as the fact the car can start and run even if the hybrid system malfunctions.

The HSD has the advantage of stop-and-go traffic and better suited towards plug-in conversions.

Otherwise, both systems work very well and provide very good fuel economy.

 

The advantage of a CVT in a standard car is that the engine RPM, "POWER SUPPLY", output adjustment(s) can be made COMPLETELY independent of road speed, the amount of power needed to move the vehicle at the current roadspeed. Need to turn the alternator (A/C compressor, water pump, power stearing pump) faster (12 volt battery being discharged too rapidly)...??

Simply increase the engine RPM, power output, and adjust the CVT in accordance with maintaining a constant road speed.

The Toyota PSD has even more advantages.

Put 30HP to the ground and another 50HP to charging the hybrid battery...DONE. In the Hyundai system the ICE and MG shaft speeds are LOCKED together, 1:1. With the PSD the road speed can be controlled totally and completely independent of the ICE RPM via proper RPM control of the two MGs.

Hyundai should have followed Ford's lead and licensed the Toyota PSD design.

 

If the upcoming Prius doesn't make use, at least, of DFI, DI, I will be VERY disappointed. At best they should adopt DFI and the multi-mode engine technique that the RX450h V6 uses. Standard Otto mode, 15:1 CR, for low to moderate ICE power output loads/loading, and Atkinson cycle mode effective CR of 12:1, at or near WOT.

 

The primary Hyundai DISADVANTAGE is that the ICE RPM and the MG RPM are LOCKED together, 1:1 ratio.

 

If the Toyota PSD (*cough* Pace) is so superior in theory - why aren't we seeing that in the EPA numbers?

 

We aren't ??

 

Have a look at the EPA numbers for the Camry Hybrid and the Sonata Hybrid and let me know what you think.

 

Compare the Camry and Sonata numbers and there's a big clue.
Compare the FFH with the Sonata Hybrid and there's another clue.

 

Sorry, I just do not put very much faith in the EPA estimates, especially concerning hybrids.

 

Some like the feel of a cvt or eCvt, some don't. Nissan put cvts as the autotransmission choice in many of their cars and sales plumeted. A cvt will provide infinite range of gear ratios, a 6 speed will provide 6. We know when ford went from 3 to 4 things got better, and from 4 to 6 they gained a little, but from 6 its a point of diminishing returns.

I'm not sure what the battery can do in the TCH but the prius can at most provide or take 27kw. The sonota motor can generate or consume 30kw so both can cars can do the trick your talking about. The sonota power is variable to the wheels with the transmission, the tch and prius have their main motor locked at one gear ratio, and must use the engine to protect the second motor from high rpms. The sonata can do it a little better going in the 60s on the motor alone. The FFH gets to the 40s with the way ford configured the psd and motors, the TCH can't get close.

unlike IMA the sonta is a full hybrid, and has the beefed up motor and battery to do what the toyota hybrids can. It should be better for conversion since you don't need to fake out the ecu software to get the motor to run with the engine off at high speeds. You can also get more power from the engine to the wheels without faking out the software.

I agree there. Car and driver got about 3 more miles per gallon on the FFH than the TCH, but both were short of their epa. Once this car gets out there we will see if hyundai tuned for the test, or if it exceeds the epa mileage in the real world.