Another Denier Wakes up and smells the coffee,,

If Christian fundamentalists could read hebrew they *might*, just *might* wonder about their translation being the correct one.

 

Well let me be the first person you know the KNOWS there is a one and true God. As I told you before, I talk to Him everyday and if I am listening carefully, I can hear Him.

He can't lie... He is Holy.

He obviously has a sense of humor... He created you.

 

Don't tell me... you are an expert in Hebrew?

Ever hear of the Dead Sea Scrolls?

 

If he can't lie then he's subject to laws that exist outside him... if he created the law, then it stands to reason that he could, in fact, lie. If he's subject to extra-deital laws (did I just invent a new phrase, ) then that begs a lot of questions.

Spiderman, so if there's another person out there who KNOWS that there's another god out there and they talk to this god everyday... do you see where I'm going with this? This is what Daniel was talking about earlier... Daniel might argue that he KNOWS there's no god and DOESN'T talk to it ever. Equally strong assertions that advance neither argument.

 

Not exactly but if you are implying: who is correct... than I will say... that is up to you. It always has been.

Right. I am not here to argue simply to state facts that I know to be true. D certainly has expressed his position well, why can't I?

Religion can try to convince you one way or another but if it isn't true in your heart, it isn't. So we are not talking about a head issue, this is a heart issue. Somethings you just can't prove with your five senses, formulas are whatever.

 

As I said, I've known plenty of people like you (you are far from the first) who imagine that they "know" there is a god. A few of them are delusional enough to think he speaks to them, but most simply insist they can "feel" him or are otherwise aware of him. Most speak of instances of prayers answered, occasionally claiming miraculous happenings in response to prayer.

Such people fail to understand the difference between knowledge and belief, and the ones who think god made things happen just for them fail to comprehend the role of coincidence in daily life.

(Though, even as an atheist, I like the line: "God always answers prayer. Sometimes the answer is 'No.' ")

I knew a bricklayer who claimed he could make it rain because god always did anything he prayed for. I asked him to demonstrate by making it rain, as we were in a drought at the time. He refused, on the grounds that his irrigation pond still had water in it. I could never figure out whether he was a deluded psychotic, or just having a good joke. About a year later he fell off a ladder and broke his leg. Maybe god was punishing him for his selfishness in refusing to make it rain when all the farmers were in such dire straits, merely because he himself didn't need rain. I worked for this guy for a while, mixing mortar, fetching bricks, and hauling on the pulley rope to get the bricks and mortar up to him. He was a good guy to work for and I liked him.

Your closing statement, that god cannot lie because he is holy, is a non sequitur. What's it mean to be holy, and why should that prevent god from telling a lie? What if it's just a little white lie to save someone from pain or embarrassment?

In pretty much every religion (Buddhism, buy its unusual nature, being an exception) there are millions of people who "KNOW" their god or gods is/are real, and in all three of the major western monotheistic religions there are millions of people who "KNOW" that their god is the ONLY god. Many of them talk to their god(s) and many of those imagine that their god(s) talk to them, answer their prayers, and perform miracles for them. They are all as deluded as you are.

None of this would bother me except that they kill so many innocent people in their incessant idiotic wars over whose god is the real god, and they are constantly trying to impose their intolerant, bigoted so-called "morality" on people outside their religion.

Bravo!

Of course, the S man will just say that all those people are wrong. If you ask him how he knows, he'll cite the Bible. If you point out that those other people have scriptures of their own, he'll say those are false scriptures. If you ask how he knows that, he'll cite the Bible again. And if you ask how he knows the Bible is right, he'll point out that the Bible itself says it is right.

You cannot argue with people after the zombies have eaten their brains. (On the third day, he rose from the dead... and he ate their brains. )

 

I cannot lay claim to being an 'expert' but hebrew is the most oft spoken language in my home, even after quite a few years living in the US. Suffice to say that my wife and I *argue* in hebrew, not english ;-)

I have. I have also wandered around the caves where they were discovered, and read passages in the museum they are displayed. Rational Israeli jews celebrate those artifacts for the historical development of Judaism and jewish culture they reveal; no idiotic attempt is made to explain away differences in texts.

Most native hebrew speakers have not read the new testament translation of the hebrew bible, but when we do it always elicits a little head shaking, a few grins, and not uncommonly smirks. The translation has so many errors (as in inaccurate translation) that Christian notions of the English version being written by 'god' as the old testament is, is really treated as something of a joke. Unrelated to theism you understand, just the crappy translation.


Did I just confuse you with facts ? Oh dear.

 

My point is that when the scrolls were translated, they closely if not exactly translated to what is written in the Holy Bible. Basically meaning that through all the years and translations, the Bible has remained the same in regards to those passages.

 

Has religion caused all of the evil in the world? I think not. Has atheism caused all of the evil in the world? I think not. Are human beings responsible for all of the good and for all of the evil in the world? I think so. The crusades were not fought for religion, they were fought for land and money. The destruction of the kulaks was not accomplished for atheism but for power. The worshipers of Baal sacrificed infants in the name of religion. Both Hitler and Stalin did in fact persecute Christians and Jews because of their religion. Both Hitler and Stalin persecuted non-religious people too. The Troubles of Belfast have more to do with whether you're a McDonald or a MacDonald (Irish Catholic or descendant of Scottish colonists of the 17th century) than religion. Its not even "tribal" in all cases- the Tutsi and Hutus were not even real tribes in Rwanda.
Bottom line- "man's inhumanity to man" (thank you, Bobbie Burns) is our problem not religion.
And to get back to topic (sort of)... maybe man's inhumanity to his planet too.

 

If you are saying that the Christian King James part that sources from the hebrew Torah (Gen - Deut) found in Qumran is a 1:1 translation I have a fancy bridge to sell you.

But then, what do I know, other than having reads parts of both.

 

I wonder how many Christians realize that one of the interesting findings of Qumran was finding a large fraction of the "christian" bible -- a century or two before Jesus was born.

 

Almost hate to say it but good point.

 

He he. We have gone from religion has caused all atrocities to whether some have the right to believe in god. Brilliant internet discussion.

No you may be in violent agreement with me though and I just can't hear it through your words. I was saying atheists discriminate, imprison, and kill the religious other just like those that pretend religion was the reason for the atrocities.

That is mainly the point I was trying to make so thank you. A week ago we celebrated one of my friend's 17th birthday. It has been 17 years since he survived the tutsi/hutu genocide in burundi. The colonizing Belgians labeled the people. My friend was a famous track athlete with an athletic scholarship to LSU. He attended a catholic high school. The catholic principal specifically marked Gilbert for death. He still has burn scars all over his body, is deeply religious, and can never go back home again.

Science is not a vote. Theories get heavily supported through supported hypothesis. The theory that the earth is the center of the universe was widely supported, until it was the sun, and now that we realized it's motion... well I think I'm the center of the universe. More recently the classic theory of gravitation was thought a fact, until experiments came out wrong, and the better theory of relativity was postulated. AGW is well supported, but hardly a fact. GW is even better supported. What is the effect of deforestation? What is the effect of the eruption in Iceland? I prefer the scientific method, not belief. In other words, I'm in agreement with your sentiments, just not their strength

 

Which would mean something if it were not for the fact that you are reading TRANSLATIONS. And since those translations were made by people more interested in justifying their own religion than in accuracy, of course they made their translations fit!

Well, if god is the definition of holy, then whatever god is, is holy. So god could lie if he wanted to, and lying would be holy because whatever god does is holy by definition.

You, a human, are trying to place limits on god, which qualifies as hubris. Which is the greater sin: unbelief, or hubris?

 

My point is that the new testament is far from an accurate translation of the old, evident to anyone who is fluent in both languages.

It thus follows that "god" did not write both of them, unless he is senile.

 

Hmm interesting. Not having read the OT entirely yet, I can't say much to that... though I am not sure how the new would "translate" old.?. If you could be more specific that would be great.

 

Oh boy, your the smart guy can't you figure this out?

Holy is to be without sin. Lying is a sin (see 10 Commandments, #9). Therefore God can not lie. He is truth.

Sin is a sin and God can not be in the presents of sin. Whether that sin is a white lie or murder.

 

I am only talking about the 'Torah' otherwise knows to english speakers as the 5 books Genesis to Deuterotomy. Those books are generally thought by christians to have been written by "god" and incorporated verbatim into the christian "bible."

No doubt first "god" delivered the text in Aramaic, later in hebrew, then in latin, and just to show off in english, french, german ... ....

Ideologues crack me up.