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First Enginer PHEV Installation in Portland Or Area

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Technical Discussion' started by dan2l, Dec 29, 2009.

  1. dan2l

    dan2l 2014 Prius v wagon

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    After 3 drives the range is holding up. I am still surprised how much differance a single 3.3ah cell makes when it is put in the right spot.

    Thanks,
    Dan
     
  2. dan2l

    dan2l 2014 Prius v wagon

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    Hello Everyone,
    It snowed today. The snow may not be important but the cooler temps do have an effect. The Prius ICE never warmed up. It did get above 150degF several times but if I did much EV then it dropped right down.

    So, I got 73mpg for 34miles. Still not too bad.

    When I get 80-90mpg the ICE is running about 50% of the time. Today I estimate that the ICE was running 75% of the time.

    It is important to realize that a PHEV is not and EV. Too many people try to put a PHEV addition into a Prius and then expect it to act like and EV. Sometimes it will get close, but sometimes there is no way. I think that I and many others are willing to accept performance like I got today in exchange for the comfort of the Prius being a regular car.

    Anyway, I am still Happy.

    Thanks,
    Dan
     
  3. Philosophe

    Philosophe 2010 Prius owner

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    Just curious: after all the data you've collected, have you made some kind of "business case" to see if you were globally saving or losing money with your investment in the Enginer kit?

    I've seriously looked into buying one when there was an interesting discount but even then the figures I had indicated that I would be losing a lot of money in doing so. Part of that money being put into drilling/building/assembling/transporting this kit, I was unsure if it was even good for the environment in the end (comparing the extra gas burned in a stock Prius Gen III with the gas saved with the same car + 4 kW Enginer kit, considering the additionnal manufacturing costs/environmental impacts, on a 20 km commute, under a 99% hydroelectric grid @ 0,08$/kWh, with an annual outside temperature average of 6°C).

    This winter I will be fiddling with a 900W cabin heater (a recent addition to the 400W block heater) to see what I can (or not) gain from it.
     
  4. abasile

    abasile Junior Member

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    Dan: As someone who might want to install a plug-in kit at some point, I appreciate reading your posts.

    I do have one question about the Enginer kits. Do they come with a switch to turn them off (and back on) while driving? The reason I'd want to do that is to maximize regenerative braking on mountain roads. In my stock Prius, I make an effort to mostly drain the traction battery if I'm about to do any significant amount of descending. Obviously, it would be counterproductive for the Enginer kit to be keeping the traction battery charged under those circumstances!

    Ideally, it would be great to be able to regen into the PHEV batteries on long descents, but that would be more complicated and expensive.
     
  5. Flaninacupboard

    Flaninacupboard Senior Member

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    You probably could regen to the PHEV pack, using one of those 12V to 120V inverters. the regen would go to the HV pack, the HV pack powers the 12V inverter, the 12V bus powes the 120V AC inverter, that is connected to the enginer charger, which charges the PHEV pack with 48V.

    Not exactly an efficient setup, but for those of us with a 230V charger could use an inverter from the HV pack straight to the charger, which would work quite well. You'd definitely need some sort of manual controls though. Your commute would need some really big hills in it to be worthwhile as well.
     
  6. dan2l

    dan2l 2014 Prius v wagon

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    I have worked with people that think like accountants for most of my career as an Engineer. I have come to the conclusion that you need to do the accounting to understand the numbers but then you need to make your choice considering more than the accounting.

    Anyway no PHEV system will pass an accounting pay for itself. test. Enginer does come the closest of all the PHEV systems

    Also conceder that the Prius itself would not pass that test if compared to a lower cost non-hybrid.

    Anyway that is a subject for another thread.
    :focus:
    Thanks,
    Dan
     
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  7. dan2l

    dan2l 2014 Prius v wagon

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    Hi Abasile,
    Yes, all the Enginer systems have a switch. It is connected to a 12v line that only has 12v when the READY light is on. This switch then drives a relay in the converter to turn it on or off.
    DSCF5880.jpg
    The green light is on when the system is on. the red light comes on when the system batteries have been drained. No lights when you turn the switch off.

    I drive down a 500ft elevation drop all the time. If I have 8 bars at the top, I turn off and drive the last 1/2 mile before the drop in electric only and then turn back on at the bottom. This is no problem when you know where the hills are.

    Thanks,
    Dan
     
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  8. dan2l

    dan2l 2014 Prius v wagon

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    No, This will not work. The 12v to 120vac inverter would need to pull close to 100a from the 12v battery and Prius dc/dc converter. This would damage the battery and dc/dc converter.

    You could set up a 12v to 60v dc/dc converter with a current limit but that would probably only put 4a or so back in so if you run it for a 5 minute regen hill you get 1/3ah into the 80ah battery pack. This is a trivial amount and not worth the effort.

    Thanks,
    Dan
     
  9. Flaninacupboard

    Flaninacupboard Senior Member

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    The attractive thing for people in europe is that at $7 a gallon for petrol the enginer kit could just about pay for itself within the two year warranty at the $2,499 price. Unfortunately the extra $1,000 in shipping and fees mean a 3 year payback period, provided the kit is still running after three years.
     
  10. Philosophe

    Philosophe 2010 Prius owner

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    It depends. In my case, I've calculated that the TCO of my car will be around 55K$CAN, compared to around 65-75K$CAN for an Accord or a Camry (Canada: high gas price/tax).

    Any further discussion on this could fit here:http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-p...ions/73554-enginer-phv-kit-business-case.html

    :focus:
     
  11. dan2l

    dan2l 2014 Prius v wagon

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    :focus:
    Hi Everyone,
    Sometimes I am not sure of the topic myself.

    It was still right at freezing yesterday. This is an unusual early cold spell for us. I was able to get 90.2mpg for 26.4 miles yesterday. I am adjusting my driving stile a little and that allowed a little better mileage.

    It is interesting that The drivers learning process has so much effect on mileage when you get into the 90-100mpg range.

    Thanks,
    Dan
     
  12. abasile

    abasile Junior Member

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    Thank you! That is exactly what I'm looking for! The next question is, will this fly with my wife? :)
     
  13. dan2l

    dan2l 2014 Prius v wagon

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    My wife just drives it with the switch on all the time.

    Note that the Enginer does not change or spoof the Prius programing in anyway. So if the Prius sees more power in the HV battery that it thinks is safe, the Prius finds a way to burn it off. So there is not safety or reliability problem if your wife leaves the switch on. She just does not get the full benefit.

    Thanks,
    Dan Lander
     
  14. abasile

    abasile Junior Member

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    I just had another look at the Enginer website. The good news is that their 4 kW kit is on sale, only $2K! ($1K more for CA.) The bad news is that it weighs 180 lbs., heavier than I expected (had been hoping for closer to 100 lbs).

    Have you noticed much degradation in handling and hill climbing with the Enginer kit due to the weight? How well does it keep up with demand when climbing long hills? Thanks again.

    Also, regarding the higher California price, I wonder if I could just go to Arizona to have it installed...
     
  15. cproaudio

    cproaudio Speedlock Overrider

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    You don't have to pay the $1000 carb fee. You just don't get the extended warranty. You don't have to pay for shipping either because there's a warehouse in LA too. You don't have to pay for sales tax either because they are based in Michigan
     
  16. dan2l

    dan2l 2014 Prius v wagon

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    Hello AB,
    No, I have not had any issues with handling. The car is designed for 4 adults plus normal luggage. That is up to 1200 pounds. So the 180 pounds is small compared to what you could be expected to put into it.

    I did a trip from Portland to San Francisco and back with 2 adults plus luggage plus the Enginer system and had no issues with handling or climbing hills. We still got 50+ mpg with the system off. So the addition of the 180 pounds was not noticeable for mpg either.

    The 2010 Prius will keep up with the fastest normal traffic going up the hills even with the 180 pounds. The issue is always that you have more regen than you can use coming down a long grade, but the "B" setting on the gear shift takes care of that.

    There are people out there that have installed 8kwh systems and they report a need for improved rear springs. But with the standard 4kwhr system that is not needed.

    Thanks,
    Dan
     
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  17. dan2l

    dan2l 2014 Prius v wagon

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    Hi Everyone,
    This car had a BMS16C balancer with a trickle charger(<100ma)to keep cells 1-4 in line. It has stayed pretty well balanced with out me needing to do too many adjustments.

    Jack just sent me two BMS16C+ balancers, so I put one onto this car and took out the trickle charger. This balancer is only for MottCells with overcharge protection, but it is supposed to keep all 16 cells balanced with out letting cells 1-4 go low as we have seen in the past.

    So far so good. I did a drive today, 34miles at 81.2mpg. I got just a little more range than I was expecting and had a red light at the end. We will see how it goes.

    If anyone is having cells 1-4 go low, I would suggest that you contact your installer or Jack.

    Thanks,
    Dan Lander
     
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  18. abasile

    abasile Junior Member

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    Dan, thank you again for sharing your experience.

    For the money, the 4kW Enginer kit seems to offer great MPG benefits, provided one is driving far enough for the engine to warm up. It would be nice to have an "ICE kill" option to allow for short, electric-only drives below 45 mph, but I'm not willing to pay $10K+ for a Plug In Supply kit.

    However, as a non-tinkerer, I admit I'm a little concerned about the BMS bugs you've run into. Hopefully, by the time I'm ready to have a kit installed (likely next year), most of the remaining bugs will have been worked out.
     
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  19. dan2l

    dan2l 2014 Prius v wagon

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    Hi Ab,
    If you have a good installer, they know the bugs and have already worked them out. When you hear of people having difficulties today, generally they have installed the system themselves thinking that they have more understanding or cappability than they actually have.

    So The key to happieness with Enginer is to have a good installer.

    Thanks,
    Dan
     
  20. mrbigh

    mrbigh Prius Absolutum Dominium

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    Hi Dan,
    I'm sorry but I have to intervene in this commentary.
    "The" Enginer equipment IT IS a DIY type of equipment to be installed in the Prius line of vehicles among others.
    The company offering local installers ( actual purchaser/owners) is because the inability of many to turn an wrench or splice a wire.
    This centralized installers offerings is only to promote sales, period.
    There is not official training nor licensing required whatsoever for the hook-ups.
    and now, in a scale of 1 to 10, what does it take to have the a "good installer" label as you said? what's your number?