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Help me with the math

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by Judgeless, Jan 28, 2011.

  1. Judgeless

    Judgeless Senior Member

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    I was board tonight so I did some math on Electric cars versus high MPG cars like Hybrids or Turbo Diesels. I live in Cleveland Ohio and pay around 11 cents for 1KWH of electricity. This covers delivery charge of the electricity and the electricity.

    The Nissan Leaf claims it takes 7 hours to charge the car using a 240V 30A feed and it will travel 100 miles on this charge. Here is the math.

    240V * 30A = 7,200 WATTS or 7.2 Kilo WATTS
    7.2 KW running for 1 hour cost me (7.2KW*$0.11) = $0.72 an hour
    7 hours * $0.72 an hour will cost me $5.54 cents to charge the car
    $5.54 to drive 100 miles.

    My GenIII Prius gets between 50 to 60MPG based the time of year for an average of 55MPG. Here is the same math for a 100 mile trip.

    100 Miles / 55MPG = 1.81 gallons per 100 miles
    1.81 gallons * $3.00 (current gas price) = $5.45 to drive 100 miles.

    If the goal is to save the earth the way to go is the Leaf. If you drive a lot and your goal is to save money a pure electric vehicle does not make sense.
     
  2. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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    You do realize that if they say it requires a 30 amp circuit it actually draws less than 30 amps, don't you?

    EPA rates the Leaf at 34 kwh/100 miles which would be $3.74 in your case.

    I do agree with the point you are making, which seems to be TANSTAAFL[​IMG], even if I don't quite agree with the magnitude of your point
     
  3. Danny Hamilton

    Danny Hamilton Active Member

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    As you mention, there are many reasons to buy an electric vehicle. Money saving isn't the only reason. But since you are specifically asking about the math...

    I see 2 small issues with your math.

    1) You assume that the battery charger will draw a full 30A for the entire 7 hours. 30A is more likely a peak draw potential. Throughout most of the charge cycle the charger may use significantly less than 7.2 kilowatts.

    2) You assume that everyone pays $0.11 per kilowatt hour. If the charger did draw 30A the entire time it might be a wash for you with your electric power provider, but others with a different source of electricity may well find that it is cheaper to drive the electric car.
     
  4. Judgeless

    Judgeless Senior Member

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    I am not sure if I agree with this. I have read the car will support 480V if available and on a 240V interface will draw 50A if available. If it has 30A I am sure it will use it.

    I believe there is a lot of loss and you will never see those numbers after charging and battery loss.

    I would love to rent one for a week and report back real numbers.
     
  5. Judgeless

    Judgeless Senior Member

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    I assume most electric companies claim they charge less than $0.11 cents a KWH and people believe it. Here is my bill claiming I only pay $0.063379 cents a KWH. They for get to add the part above that brings my bill to $0.11 cents a KWH after all the extra charges minus discounts.

    [​IMG]
     
  6. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    Does it pull constant current for the whole time, or does the current taper down?

    Nissan gives different figures:


     
  7. Judgeless

    Judgeless Senior Member

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    I monitor total power out on every breaker in my house. It would be great to rent one for a week to see how much it really consumes. Here are my stats over the last hour.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    What equipment or tools are you using for this monitoring?
     
  9. Judgeless

    Judgeless Senior Member

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    I did a lot of research and found this company to be the best.

    Brultech Research Inc.

    They still have a lot bugs but I think they will do well. I found them on Google Power Meter. All my stats get forwarded to Google Power Meter.
     
  10. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    you're absolutely right. you have to take the total bill and divide by the number of kw used. and we don't have night time charging rates here either. :(
     
  11. Tech_Guy

    Tech_Guy Class Clown

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    WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Your electricity is practically free compared to what we pay here in California. In the San Francisco bay area, P,G & E charges us about 12 cents per KWH, for an initial baseline rate. The price rapidly climbs to about 40 cents per KWH. In this area, the typical home owner uses far more electricity than the baseline rate. Consequently, it would cost around 40 cents per KWH to charge an electric vehicle making it far more costly than using gasoline.

    Keith.
     
  12. Judgeless

    Judgeless Senior Member

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    WOW!!!!

    40 cents a KWH is a lot of money. Here is the math of driving the Leaf 100 miles at $0.40KWH

    240V * 30A = 7,200 WATTS or 7.2 Kilo WATTS
    7.2 KW running for 1 hour cots (7.2KW*$0.40) = $2.88 an hour
    7 hours * $2.88 an hour will cost a CA resident $20.16 to charge the car
    $20.16 to drive 100 miles.

    A GenIII Prius Hybrid that gets an average of 55MPG will cost $5.45. Driving a Leaf in CA cost as much as driving a car that gets 15MPG. Here is the math.

    100 Miles / 15MPG = 6.67 gallons per 100 miles
    6.67 gallons * $3.00 (current gas price) = $20.00 to drive 100 miles.
     
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  13. Danny Hamilton

    Danny Hamilton Active Member

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    Sure, but it is also misleading in the other direction to just divide the total bill by the total KWH. There are fixed costs on the electric bill that will not go up with the addition of charging an electric vehicle. I know of at least $10.78 per month on my bill that I will get charged for regardless of whether I use 1 KWH for the month or 1,000 KWH. That is a BIG difference ($10.78 per KWH at 1 KWH, but only $0.01078 at 1000 KWH). It really isn't a fair comparison to multiply your predicted KWH usage by a calculated KWH value that includes these fixed charges.
     
  14. Judgeless

    Judgeless Senior Member

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    I have a fixed $4.00 fee, the rest changes based on KWH used. I calculated that when I came up with my number. I have read that 11 cents is the national average. I did not know CA was 40 cents.
     
  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    true, the utilities have really buggered up the bills to make them as confusing as possible!
     
  16. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

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    That's true.
    However (comma) I've long suspected that the LEAF really isn't a 100 mile-per-charge vehicle. Despite the fact that it makes the cost per charge calculations reeeeally easy, you cannot assign a 100-mile range per charge.
    In fact....I've read (although I've not independently verified) that the true range for the LEAF is closer to 75 miles....less in some climes.
    Source: http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/energy/26067/

    The good news is that it may not take as long as advirtised to reach a full SOC with this vehicle....something else I've not really looked into, since I have no intentions of paying $33,000 for a DOT-approved enclosed golf cart with climate controlled seating for 5.
    Sorry....I just can't use a vehicle with 75+/- mile range.

    The true cost of ownership will vary wildly from $0.03 to upwards of $3.00 per mile depending on who is bending the numbers, and how much they want to justify the whole LEAF experiment.

    Nice try Nissan! I applaud your effort!!!
    Keep working on it, but my next vehicle (as things are now) will be a Prius, an Insight, or an as-yet-to-be-named econobox.
     
  17. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    that makes it just like a gas car then. every tankfull has a different mpg average based on a number of factors and therefore different cents per mile cost. you really need to divide the cost of a charge by miles driven.:)
     
  18. Judgeless

    Judgeless Senior Member

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    I would love to try a Leaf or any pure Electric Car for a day. I have had my GenIII Prius for a while and have a good feeling on what it takes to get good MPG’s without over doing it.

    I have a 220V 30A outlet in my garage that I use for my air compressor. With the right SAE J1772 cable I can charge the car. All my breakers are monitored and I could tell exactly how long it takes to change, total Watts used and how much money it costs.
     
  19. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    you've got my vote!:p
     
  20. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

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    How many kWh does it take to drive a Leaf 100 miles?

    Your calculation is based on (7.2kW) * (7 hours) = 50.4 kWh for 100 miles. That is the most pessimistic figure I've heard.