CR knocks Volt, praises Prius

Huh ??
Sorry, I thought I was addressed directly in the post I was responding to.

 

Agreed!!

Some years ago, the US mocked "obsolete" Russion fighter aircraft. Only later did an appreciation for their technology surface: Components that did not need to be made of exotic materials, weren't; Imagine, some electronic components used old vacuum tube technology, then it was discovered they were not impacted by EMP.

The Prius is a remarkable compilation of engineering, technology, and design genius. All components (ICE, MG1, MG2, HSD A/C system and etc, are all designed to function in perfect harmony for a vehicle of that size, weight, aerodynamics, tire size and etc). To economically mass produce a vehicle that delivers the top fuel efficiency of any mass-produced car, is an achievement. And, to do so year after year is a measure of their brilliance. Also, the frequency of repair record is significantly below average according to CR; and the HD battery carries a 150,000 mile warranty. I would say that it is all pretty remarkable. I am grateful that I own an example and intend to enjoy it for many years to come.

 

The biggest problem of the ones you list is cost. The charging rate has been solved by a few manufacturers (but not all of course). LI cost is going down faster then NiMh so you will see more and more LI batteries in hybrids as the difference goes away. As linked Toyota will be using them in a few hybrids this year.

 

Careful.... you've got to be precise in that highlighted statement.

It depends solely on how far from home base work is from those people to whom you refer. Shortly in the future this comparison will be done by most potential buyers and many in the media...
Petro-fuel usage ( GHG creation )
RT commuting distance........ Up to 10 miles.. 10-30 mi... 30-65 mi
Volt PHEV40 ( 30 effective )....... 0 gal.......... 0 gal......... 1.0 gal
Prius PHV 13 ( 10 effective )....... 0 gal......... 0.4 gal....... 1.1 gal
Prius gas hybrid ...................... 0.2 gal........ 0.6 gal....... 1.3 gal

At a 75 mile RT commute

• the Volt and Prius PHV both use 1.3 gal of petrofuel
• the Prius gas hybrid uses: 1.5 gal

At a 90 mile RT commute the petrofuel usages are:

• Volt .........1.7 gal
• Prius PHV 1.6 gal ( generates less GHG / commute )
• Prius gas.. 1.8 gal

At a 100 mile RT commute the petrofuel usages are:

• Volt .......2.0 gal
• Prius PHV 1.8 gal
• Prius gas. 2.0 gal ( equal to the Volt )

In normal conditions and weather...
Volt, 35 mpg in CS mode ( 3 gpc )
Prius PHV, 50 mpg in CS mode ( 2 gpc )
Prius gas hybrid 50 mpg ( 2 gpc ) at all times

 

You'll have to provide a source for your contention that Toyota 'takes US taxpayer money'. In fact Toyota is a huge taxpayer since it's so profitable here in the US. Now if you believe that they take Japanese taxpayer money, yes it might be so but I have no idea if it is true or not.

If you're discussing the hybrid tax credits here then you're mistaken ... that money went from the taxpaying public directly to the hybrid buyers. That money was an transfer of taxpayer money amongst us the tax paying public, you-to-me.

If you're discussing the 'cash-for-clunkers' funding that's a big ditto. The vehicle makers got none of that $3 Billion either. The money was transferred to dealers, sales people, local businesses and the buyers who took advantage of the program. Again you-to-me or me-to-you.

There has been some direct subsidy funding on advanced technologies made available to the vehicle makers but I'm nearly certain that Toyota and Honda have not taken any of this funding.

 

If you do remind, you already have posted that before.

http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-hybrid-news/90664-cr-knocks-volt-praises-prius-10.html#post1276701

We let it pass for now, but you have to promise to answer our questions, and to pay more attention to our posts (many thou miles of driving hybrids and know-how of its ingenious design where HSD is referred to)

 

You are listing tailpipe GHG creation only.
Adding powerplant GHG creation makes it even worse for the Volt.
(CO2: about 1000g/kWh produced from coal (at the wall socket), about 500g/kWh produced from NG).

Giora.

 

Yes this is true. In addition to the tailpipe emission 'GHG cost' there is a 'charging GHG cost' that has to be applied to any PHEV that needs to be connected to the grid. I didn't have the rate handy when I posted.

 

deleted

 

Govt returns Gm money though tax subsidies, to keep or increase jobs in US, instead of going somewhere else e.g Mexico or China, but they also pay GM debts and fund them for their strategic vision. GM boss is government.

You re certainly a troll. You are implying that, your writing "assumptions" are made by Toyota.

 

The EPA derates about 15-20%. There is also close to 10% energy wasted at the power plant, and about 7% transmission losses from the plant to the home. Overall US power-plant efficiency is 32%.

So a Volt 'mile' starting from the EPA number of 350 wh/mile (wall-to-wheel) becomes 350/(0.85*0.9*0.93*0.32) = 1537 wh/mile plant-to-wheels.

Compare that to a Prius that burns a gallon of fuel containing 33,500 wh to travel say 50 miles, which gives 670 wh/mile plant-to-wheel.

The Volt is not energy efficient, and in fact is an energy pig.

 

Yea, it is important to know that MPGe assumes electricity can be generated with 100% efficiency.

The Prius (cordless) gets 50 MPG because the Atkinson cycle gas engine is only 40% efficient.

The best powerplant is about 50% efficient so MPGe is double overated.

 

^^ I know what you mean, but the obvious rebuttal is that the EPA assumes petrol can be made with 100% efficiency. This is why I prefer to clarify what part of the energy lifecycle the numbers include. If two numbers are compared that include different parts of the lifecycle, then it is easier to realize that the comparison is flawed. Looking at you, EPA.

 

Do you think that the Volt and the upcoming Prius Plug in are bumping up against the fact that many if not most Americans would be very well served by an EV, as their main vehicle? I know plenty of people that don't drive far at all in their everyday travels (myself included) that are hampered by that short trips kills MPG monster. The ICE is the dead weight in the mix, if we are willing to take a hard look at usage. The long range vehicle would be the second vehicle, not the first.

 

These mpg / gal. points are a good start, but lack much depth still. The electricity to MAKE gas never gets figured in. The pollution from that substantial amount of fossil fuel to electric generation fails to get incorporated. Military costs (trillions) in life, and high tech weapon manufacturing / r&d are left out. It's not as simple as gallons & watts. But too many are stumbled when asked to consider PV powered EV transportation ... focusing on its limitations. So instead, the smart bomb manufacturing continues. That trillion dollar budget would make a wonderful all-EV high speed rail & subway system, wouldn't it? Then we wouldn't have to argue over efficient/inefficient Volts & Prii.

.

 

My state built a train between our main cities. The track mostly runs alongside the highway. Then Obama stimulus funds to the tune of tens of millions of dollars was spent widening and repaving the highway. People returned to car driving, and our current repub admin wants to scrap the train, arguing that use is too low.

 

That "cordless" reference is really growing on me. It's much nicer than the "no-plug" way of referring to the current Prius.

Thanks for the new identifier. +1
.

 

"no-plug" suggests something is missing so it has negativity to it. Cordless has a positive annotation that suggests independence or freedom.

I would forward that +1 to Dough Coleman. I picked it up from an article that interviewed him.

 

That is one heck of freudian slip.

 

Perhaps you have not heard about the Leaf?