Editorial: A Blind Squirrel Finds His Nut

is resale value calculated there?

 

Jetta TDI 105hp BlueMotion with all the tricks applied, even with manual transmission and start/stop, still gets 10% worse MPG than European Prius, so comment about "60 mpg" european tdi's is probably from UK media which uses imperial gallons and EU consumption test and lack of understanding that it can not be compared to US Prius but it should be compared to Euro Prius which gets.... 72.4 MPG .

And of course, "not impressed" with HSD which sold 3,000,000 cars and "impressed" with cars that sell in hundreds just show lack of basic understanding. Definetly not #WINNING.

:cheer2:

 

I was thinking of the 200h and 250h.

They did op for power with the 250h. It gives bragging rights for potential owners, but that's probably about it when it comes down to day to day driving. Zero to sixty sprints aren't a common occurance, and in the lower speeds it's mostly the M/G doing the work for quick acceleration. For performance in a smaller class car, you get 35mpg. Better than the HyCam, but it's larger. Then the Lincoln Fusion beats it.

While it's out there, I thought the HyCam tweaked the Camry aero?

The HyHi does well for it's class, but it doesn't have any direct competitors, they are smaller, larger, or a luxury/ performance SUV, to gauge how far Toyota is pushing the boundry there.

The 200h is smaller inside, a hundred pounds heavier, and has the same drivetrain as the Prius. The Cd is also higher, .29 to .25, which will mostly have an impact on highway mpg. Do most Prius owners suffer an 8 mpg loss while carrying another 100 pounds or more? Whenever I had a load in the 2005, it was during roadtrips, so I can say if weight alone caused the mpg drop.

Seeing the Prius numbers and then the other Toyota hybrids, even considering market segment expectations, still has me at Wth Toyota. Without the Prius, their hybrid offerings only give an economy and emissions improvement comparable to everyone else. It can be argued that without the Prius there wouldn't be as many hybrids available. It did help motivate the others, but not everyone needed it to try bringing some hybrid to market.

 

Essentially, yes. All of the TCO calculations I've seen estimate the amount of depreciation in value each year.

 

Dear Chris,

Your opinion is stupid

Sincerely
Prius Owners

 

Please read Mr. Green's Web-Only Mailbag - November/December 2007 - Sierra Magazine - Sierra Club about nickel. The NiMH battery in a Prius weighs about ~100 lbs and contains 32 lbs of nickel. Even if a car is domestically built, that doesn't mean parts and raw materials aren't sourced from all over the world. See National Geographic Channel - Human Footprint - Our Driving Imprint and

.

Would we like to see more mileage? Sure, but vehicles have gotten larger and heavier over for a long time (longer than past 10 years). See Minicars? I don't See No Stinking Minicars - Column - Auto Reviews - Car and Driver.

It's disingenuous to only compare highway mileages when you should be looking at city and combined mileage as well. Per Side-by-Side Comparison, here are are city/highway, combined mileages:
2001 Prius: 42 city/41 highway, 41 combined
2011 Cruze Eco 6MT: 28 city/42 highway, 33 combined
2011 Elantra 6MT: 29 city/40 highway, 33 combined
2011 Fiesta SFE auto: 29 city/40 highway, 33 combined
2010 Prius: 51 city/48 highway, 50 combined

Look at how much higher the city and combined mileages are. Notice the non-hybrids you cite still fall short of the 1st gen Prius' city and combined mileage?

Notice that at Honda Media Newsroom - Civic - All-New 2012 Honda Civic Emphasizes Style, Fuel Economy and Performance, Honda cleverly left out the city and combined mileages of the non-hybrids and then decided to include the combined mileage only of the hybrid?

Since you seem to be concerned w/the source and transportation of parts and the NiMH battery, let's take the fuel usage of a 33 mpg combined car and compare it to a 50 mpg car over say, 150K miles. They would've consumed 4545 vs. 3000 gallons of gasoline, respectively. Each US gallon of gas weights 6.3 pounds. The 33 mpg vehicle would've consumed 9736 pounds more gasoline, while producing 30909 pounds more CO2 (http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/co2.shtml).

How about taking into account the energy needed for that extra 9736 pounds of fuel such as exploring for suitable oil sites, setting up drilling equipment (e.g. rig or platforms), drilling for it, extracting it, shipping the oil to a refiner (via pipelines and/or tankers), refining it, and shiping the refined product to your gas station? See http://www.eia.gov/countries/index.cfm?view=reserves for where most of the world's oil resides.

As for "European diesels are able to get 60 mpg equivalent", please cite your sources and example cars along so we can validate the US gallons were used and not Imperial ones along w/the driving cycle used.

Per The Truth About EPA City / Highway MPG Estimates - Feature - Car and Driver

Per VCAcarfueldata.org.uk - Search Results - Further Information, the 3rd gen Prius gets "76.3" mpg on European tests, but alas, it's on a totally different test than US EPA tests and in larger Imperial gallons. 76.3 miles per UK gallon = 63.53 miles per US gallon.

I also suspect those vehicles you cite wouldn't be legal in many/any states in the US due to high emissions.

For reference, Chris DeMorro's thoroughly debunked piece "Prius Outdoes Hummer in Environmental Damage" is at The Recorder. His "retraction" was at The Recorder in which he still got numerous facts wrong (Tesla Roadster for $30K? Right...) Some of the debunking was at http://priuschat.com/forums/international-owners/31027-please-sign-petition-2.html#post528308.

At the time, the author admitted somewhere at http://forums.corral.net/forums/politics/891832-article-i-wrote-hummer-vs-prius.html that "Hell, I threw the paper together in 1/2 hour of being bored. I was just having fun lol." (quote seems to be removed now)

I already went thru the CNW junk science many times here and elsewhere before, but unfortunately, some of the Priuschat links to it are dead. I'd have to dig around to find my posts again.

 

As noted, yes. The Edmunds TCO measures the depreciation as an expense to the buyer. This calculation does take into account the higher resale value of the Prius vis-a-vis the Matrix.

During the 5 yr period the Prius owner incurs a greater depreciation expense due to the higher acquisition price. Then the actual depreciation costs for both vehicles slow dramatically after 5 yrs but the fuel-cost-benefit for the Prius remains constant as long as both vehicles are in service.

The greater depreciation cost on the Prius however is balanced out by significantly lower fuel costs thus creating equal TOTAL costs at the end of 5 yrs / 75000 mi ( 125000 km ). This assumes relatively low and stable fuel costs here. As fuel costs rise like they did in 2008 and as they are rising now the costs favor the Prius.

 

Then go buy a Tesla Roadster, duhhhhhhh!

A car being 'fun to drive' is waaay overated for city driving.

You ever ride sportbike motorcycles? Ever tear up twisty backroads? How fun is it to come back into dense city like San Mateo and toot around on a sportbike? It's pretty boring being behind a Corolla. So, fun to drive in traffic, which is where most Prii are going to end up, is overrated.

I think 'fun to drive' is just a marketing tool thrown around to get people to buy a certain type of car.

Are you talking about the 2012 VW Jetta TDI clean diesel which gets 30 city / 42 highway MPG?

or is there another secret weapon that actually gets 60 miles / US gallon?....

I know the answer .... no. And diesel is $.30 more / gallon than 87

VW Jetta Trims Overview - 2011 Volkswagen Jetta S, SE & SEL Models

 

Btw, I bought a Prius not to save the world, just to save gas and money. Thank you.

 

Oh, you mean the 2012 Jetta TDI clean diesel that gets 30 MPG city / 42 MPG highway ! Same as the Cruze ECO, etc, etc, etc...

That means, if you tootle around, burn a tank of gas all city in your TDI or Cruze .... you get 30 MPG ... wheeeeeeee!

If you burn up your tank of gas in city with Prius, you get 50 MPG

note - this is just going by EPA. I could get 50 MPG city with Prius any day.

 

3rd gen Prius is a better car than Matrix which is just Corolla class interior.

 

Sorry Tony, here's why I think his opinions are stupid

you expect more than what is capable of todays technology at an affordable price point.

i suppose you would have been happy if they rolled out a muscle car hybrid that got 20mpg. because that would be the next logical step for prius.

...lol

those vehicles aren't midsize family cars. you're not comparing apples to apples. thats like saying a ford focus is lame because its not as fun as a mustang gt. NO KIDDING, its not in the same class. i don't know anything about the esflow but i'm assuming if you want any significant range, you will have to sell everything you own to afford the cost of the battery.

unless you can afford a tesla roadster, YES IT DOES!

again apples to apples
-gallons are measured differently
-those cars are half the size of the prius
-european diesel emissions are ridiculous

...lol

 

Good morning gentlemen, sorry for not getting back soon.

Alas, so much has been thrown my way, I don't know where to start.

Anyway, here is a list of European vehicles I was talking about that get equivalent or better gas mileage than the Prius. It is an older piece (circa 2009) so I'm not sure how much, if any, these standings have shuffled about. The Prius is on the list, and yes, European standards are different from the U.S., but ABG did a nice job of converting the MPG's to U.S. metrics.

Edit: won't let me post a link, but just search google for "autoblog green europes 15 fuel efficient cars"

If you asked me which of those cars I'd rather have, it'd be either the Mini diesel or the new Ford Fiesta Econetic.

Now then, I suppose I have not done a sufficient job of explaining myself. All I am trying to say is, if the Prius is going to be the most fuel efficient car available in America, if it is going to carry the flag of fuel efficiency for other vehicles to live up to, then Toyota needs to push it harder. 50 mpg seems like the high water mark, and the awful Geo Metro was able to achieve that kind of fuel economy 20 years ago. Is the Prius a much, much, much better car than the Metro? 100 times yes. But in terms of fuel economy? Well, no.

Objectively, as a car, I do not find the Prius either exciting or stylish. It looks the way it does for aerodynamics, its not very fast, it doesn't sound cool, etc etc. These are all MY OPINIONS. I grew up around fast and loud cars, and I won't apologize for that. The one thing the Prius has going for it is exceptional fuel economy...but other cars are closing in, and fast, and without the styling cues or sloth. Even you Prius fans must admit that in the last year, other automakers have gained a lot of ground on the Prius. At this rate, how much longer will it really be before somebody surpasses the Prius? Not much longer, I'd wager.

Again, just my opinions. You guys obviously have different opinions, and I must give the Prius credit for gathering together such devoted fans. Like it or not, we have more in common than you might like to admit. You guys are car fans. And I appreciate that.

Since it doesn't seem like I am coming around any time soon though, I feel the most I can offer the riled-up Prius crowd is a place on Gas 2.0 to come out in defense of your hybrid. I'll offer Russell the first crack at writing an op-ed piece either this Sunday or next defending the Prius. Free range, write what you want in defense of the Prius, from a Prius owner's perspective, on the site I am, for lack of a better word, running.

I'm not the man for that job, and I just can't do the car justice as well as I imagine you all can. It is the fairest way I feel I can offer both sides of the story, plus I get some extra content for this labor of love that I call Gas 2.0.

Think about it, discuss it, rage against me some more if you will. I write about green cars because I love green cars as much as I love muscle cars. I just want to make that one thing clear. Let me know what you come up with, fellow car nerds.

 

Chris,

I feel you on the Prius styling or driving excitement issue but I disagree with you in that the Prius doesn't appeal to driving enthusiasts or "gear heads". I will concede that a majority of so-called gear heads and even regular non-informed drivers would not look to the Prius as an option in their search for a new car. That being said, I have spent nearly two decades building race and show cars/trucks yet I find the Prius extremely appealing. I found it so enjoyable (and responsible) to drive that I sold a '00 Corvette, '00 Trans Am (heads, cam, nitrous, 4400stall), and a 716rwhp twin-turbo GMC Sierra 4x4 after purchasing the Prius and for the last 5 years I have not really missed the aforementioned vehicles. Maybe it's the fact I'm getting older or maybe my education has shown me that my previous choices in vehicles lead to higher pollution rates in my community as well as high oil consumption which we all know is toxic to health, environment and national security. Either way, I have switched my passion for lowest ET/MPH to one of highest MPG and overall efficiency. It's the same passion but expressed in a different and dare I say more mature way?

You call the Prius ugly and boring and say it lacks innovation. You insinuate a lack of insight on Toyota's part with regards to designing a car that normal people would want to purchase yet sales numbers tell a different tale. If you were to take a step out of the traditional performance car world you would see that the Prius design is a great achievement and definitely high performance in a non-traditional sense. It boasts one of the lowest cd's numbers for a mass-produced vehicle YET it retains a very roomy interior and very useful cargo space AND gets the highest combined MPG of any vehicle sold in the US AND has great crash test ratings. I don't see how that cannot be considered innovation. The new so-called 40mpg cars offered by Ford, Chevy, Hyundai etc.. are cool and I'd rather see someone in those than a Hummer but lets be honest here, they are NOT averaging 40mpg in normal driving situations. Your Metro to Prius comparison is completely off base and has been discussed many times here on Prius Chat. The Geo Metro (2-door hatchback) that was capable of Prius-like fuel efficiency was MUCH smaller, boasted 52HP ( HP to weight ratio: 32lb/hp vs. 2010 Prius 22lb/hp), weighed approx. 1700lbs. and packed less creature comforts than a 1985 K-car! I know the car well as I spent thousands of miles sitting shotgun in my friends 1992 Metro hatchback.

You make comments about parts and materials being sourced from around the world and that the battery is made of nickel yet you fail to acknowledge the fact that most vehicles sold in the US are made in the same fashion and all contain nickel. Have you even calculated how much nickel goes into the production of a Ford F-350 or how many other toxic gasses and metals are released into the environment during oil exploration, extraction, transport, storage, and consumption? These are not small numbers and at least the materials in the Prius battery are reclaimed and not released into the environment. No one would stick a hybrid battery in a landfill when there is a $300 bounty on the battery (at least I believe there is still a bounty). The shipping from Japan to the US is a hard point to argue and I wish the Prius was made here but at least they are utilizing the most efficient form of transport in the form of cargo ships. In terms of weight and volume, a cargo tanker is much more efficient than most other forms of transport.

Your Wrangler is a cool off-road vehicle but who would ever want to drive one as a daily driver? It is very uninspiring, handles terribly, creature comforts are inferior to the Prius and other modern hybrids, wastes a large amount of fuel during it's lifetime not mention the fact that 80% or more of the ones I see leak oil which then washed into our streams and ocean. You focus so much on bashing the Prius for it's styling or lack of performance (driving excitement) yet you drive a Wrangler. To me that just shows you have a bone to pick and like to stir up controversy to increase your visibility as a writer yet while you are pounding away at your keyboard in a self-serving attempt to promote your career, you are doing the nation a disservice by swaying the uneducated away from vehicles that are indeed less toxic to human health, the environment, and national security. Isn't there a better way to jump start your career that doesn't have such a negative effect on society? I wish you the best in life but please do more research on the subject of hybrid cars before you submit your next opinion piece.

 

I hate to do this but I have to give Chris credit for being willing to step into the "tiger's den" and defending his views here on PC. Living in NYC a fun to drive car would be a waste of time and money since every one or two blocks there is a traffic light. Chris thanks and try driving the Lexus CT 200H to see if it's sporty for you. That wasn't a challange but I am honestly interesting in hearing your opinion. Ryan

 

I think the Lexus CT 200H is worlds away a better looking car than a Prius. I would totally rock one of those if I could afford it. I've even fiddled around on the configurator online. The one i built came out to just shy over $40,000

And yes it is absolutely true that parts for many cars come from all over the world. That has been true for quite some time now, and I think if Toyota could make it so the Prius sourced its parts locally, it'd be

A) better for the environment and
B) other companies would follow suit

I only attack the Prius because it is the best. This is the icon for fuel efficiency. It is representative of all other vehicles striving for fuel economy. And I can tell you guys take a lot of pride in that. Mucho respecto.

As for my Wrangler, it has been my daily driver for almost 4 years. That is the longest time I've owned a DD (I turn 25 today, yaaay.) It has power nothing. It is loud, it is rough, it is visceral. It does my spine no favors. It is a visceral driving experience and, if I didn't need the money to pay my taxes, I wouldn't be about to sell it.

What I love about my Jeep, and all of the cars I have owned was their relative simplicity. I once blew the clutch line 600 miles from home on my Wrangler and I was able to fix it with a 49 cent clamp and a screwdriver.

That's awesome, and important to me, because I can't really afford a mechanic. My father and I have had to tackle and fix any and every issue presented on our automobiles because mechanics cost a lot. I've never owned a new car, and I won't unless I am sure I can take care of it myself. Yes, I know that is what warranties are for. This is just MY situation, and while it is kinda a shitty one, I've learned a lot about cars without having any formal education, and what I have learned is that the less complicated a car is, the less there is that can go wrong with it. That is just me and I know such a life isn't attractive to anybody with half a brain.

I love old Toyotas and I even had a brief love affair with a Supra that I ultimately didn't buy (and still regret it.) So don't think this I'm just some flag-waving patriot cheering on everything GM, Ford, or Chrysler makes. I know Detroit made some crappy cars. They also made some damn good ones, just like every automaker. I've owned Saabs and Nissans and my family's driveway is a veritable cross section of world-ranging automobiles.

As for "jump starting my career" ha, I wish. I just want to write about cars and work on cars. I am a simple man like that. This is pretty benign as far as controversy goes. I'd love to convert a few more gearheads and performance fans over to the green side, and while you may not like the way I am doing it, I'm not trying to convince you since you're technically already on my side (even if you don't know it.)

 

I really can't argue with you. Your last post makes sense. Thanks for taking the time to visit PC and further express your thoughts in a very civil manner.

 

For the Lexus, the whole point is that the souped-up version of the 2011 Prius versus the Lexus, the price difference is minimal in % yet you get a snazzier car.

Thanks for your honesty. Not easy being 25 - starting to mature but don't get respect (yet) because Corporate always look at age as being an indicator of experience.
The 25 yrs exp scenario = 5 yrs of evolution + 20 repeated yrs of 0 evolution.

Of course we're being nitpicks because of misinformation. Like comparing US gallons to EU gallons, creating false MPG comparisons, a word is a word. The metric system is so much better - so always use METRIC for any calculations, then convert to MPG to your local audience.

IOW, the G3 Prius gets the same L/100km in the US as in EU.

Now think on how most "decent" motorcycles get 50 MPG.
- manual xmission
- low weight
- two wheels (less friction)
- low drag

Then look at the 50 MPG of a Prius...so it's normal that there is a "barrier" here. With gasoline, no matter what you do, to have a "safe" car (the GEO Metro was far from 'safe' compared to a Prius) that isn't a danger getting unto a highway, there are limits.

Motor Assist (Honda) will never better the 40 MPG barrier and the HSD probably won't bust the 50 MPG barrier, until, another fuel source is introduced that reduces gasoline consumption. That only "shifts" the problem from A to B.

A Prius can easily & cheaply be converted in many ways to accept alternate fuel instead of gasoline and still keep that gasoline as a backup. There's room for it.
(CNG, extra HV battery storage + plug, H fuel cell, hydrogen / gasoline mix, or hydrogen electric generator to recharge the HV battery, etc)

-Cheap as in the upgrade is less than 25% than the cost of a new car. You don't buy a LEAF to save gasoline money because a LEAF would be cheaper than upgrading a Prius, IOW.

So based on the limits of current technology, everything being done is "carry over" tech, much like CFL's now until LED lightbulbs / strips are cheap & bright enough.

So rant all you want Chris, you'll get your much needed respect by keeping your numbers straight. An easy way to do this is through PriusChat, you have the Best Of The Best tinkerers here.

Like, can you imagine using your car to power your home instead of a noisy & costly 4-stroke Honda generator able to provide a stead 15 amps @ 120VAC? For less than 2k$ the Prius does the job perfectly as safely.
(see PriUPS project)

My most impressive "hack" to date was using a trailer hitch on my G3 Prius and moving fridge/stove, washer & drier, etc, with a 4x6 trailer, getting under 8L/100km doing 90-100 KPH, trips of +50km in one direction. No engine overheating. Cheaper than using a UHAUL rental truck (was lucky no rain).

FWIW, a ROGUE tried passing me towing a boat while I was doing 95KPH w/trailer, and his engine blew up as he was passing me.

 

Actually, only the NOx emission standard is less restrictive in the Euro 5 than the California/U.S. emission standards. All other emissions limits are more strict than LEV II/Tier 2 Bin 5 (NMHC is about equivalent; Euro 5 doesn't have a specific limit for diesels, only a NMHC+NOx standard and a max NOx standard). PM and CO emission limits are MORE restrictive than even SULEV II/Bin 2.

As of September 2011, a "particle number" emission limit will be imposed on diesel vehicles in Europe. The limit will be 6X10**11 particles/kilometer. That's so strict that most gas cars couldn't meet that standard without a particle filter, especially GDI.

Granted, it's not a direct comparison since the U.S. uses the FTP75 test cycle and the Europeans use the NEDC test cycle, but a comparison test by CARB showed that the difference in emissions between the two test cycles is not significant.