Prius Myths and their Rebuttals

It is. Look up the every model year between 04 thru 11 at Side-by-Side Comparison.

I'm not a liberal. I'd consider myself a moderate and am not even registered to vote.

Regarding the Metro, it stopped being sold many years ago and would be death trap on today's roads besides not being an apples to apples comparison. See http://priuschat.com/forums/prius-h...ind-squirrel-finds-his-nut-7.html#post1285960.

As for "real American car over a foreign car".... let's see, there's 10 'most American' cars - 1. Toyota Camry (1) - CNNMoney.com. The Ford Fusion is assembled in Mexico. The Volt has only 40% US/Canada part content, has a transmission from Japan, batteries from Korea, an engine from Austria, is over >$41000 to start (before $7500 Federal tax credit), gets worse mileage than even the 1st gen Prius, seats 1 less than a Prius, requires premium fuel, and is classified as a compact.

For the electricity market that Dan Edmunds is in at 2011 Chevrolet Volt: "Fuel" Economy Update 2, the cost per mile (for just electricity and/or gas) is higher than a Prius and

The Fiesta gets far inferior mileage to a Prius, is a subcompact and assembled in Mexico.

 

15-20k after taxes and registration and such? possibly. I think you can nab a used Prius for 11 or 12k, then maybe 2k in taxes? So 15k is a good ballpark all said and done. In which case it would pay off in 5 years. I've had my car for 6.5 years so its not difficult to do.

 

But the Fiesta is a great car nonetheless. It's just not a fair comparison to a Prius but if I were shopping in that price range I would certainly buy it.

 

Ah yes the long ago time of 2001.

I understand it's possible, but this was to prove a point to others. That a Prius is not finacially efficent compared to running an old car .

No one is attacking anyone last time I checked.

My Used vehicles have long ago paid for themselves.
I do not need to use new resources (Steel, paper, plastic) as the truck was built 16 years ago.
It has also taken the previous owner almost 170k before I bought it. I have put 8k on it.

My truck did not need to be transported from Japan. It did not need to be driven on a big rig to the dealership. The battery production is also detremental to the enviroment if you wanna go there.

Should have come on here earlier and grabbed it

 

I bought my Prius after giving up on a 1995 SAAB 900, which I purchased while I was a GM employee 16 years ago. I did the math and based on my 60 mile commute it cost less for the new car payments than the extra gasoline and upkeep of the old car. The tipping point came about about a month ago, as things kept on breaking on the SAAB. I was sorry to let it go, but have no regrets about my purchase, especially financial.

 

What old car? Your old cars are draining your bank account slowly but surely. The sooner you ditch them and buy a used efficient car the sooner you will start saving.

I was referring to a post you made on the forum suggesting it would be fun to do.

It used those resources at one time. So the point is moot. What is important is getting gross polluters off the road to they stop using resources and start driving something more efficient and easier to recycle. I pretty well versed in the whole reduce reuse recycle mantra (or Cradle to Cradle) but in some cases, purchasing a newer more efficient product makes sense. I would suggest this for a Civic driver but for someone in a Hummer or Silverado it makes sense.

Transportation from Japan is not all that inefficient, especially compared to big rig delivery which nearly every vehicle has to go through unless you live at a manufacturing plant or at a major port. So to say your truck did not have to be delivered by big rig is either a lie or the person you bought it from lived near a plant. The cost was paid, just not by you.

If you would like to be educated on the Prius battery we can point you to a number of sources but I guarantee you it is not as bad as you think. The fact it is recyclable and repairable is just another poke in the eye for hybrid haters.

 

I think what everyone should do here is thank 1996DodgeDakotaand others like him for keeping the resale value of used vehicles up. This way those of us that want to reduce our dependence on oil can trade or sell our vehicles on a nice new efficient Prius.

 

Nah, to make a real difference we all need to be more efficient and it would be nice if they would start making trucks a lot more efficient instead of boosting HP/TQ every year. That way people like George can have his cake and save some cash while eating it.

 

I think bicycles are fun. Driving cars is OK for short stretches at a time but for the most part pretty boring.

You might be amazed (or not) at the wide variety of idiocy "most" people display. Do you have your own opinion, fwiw ?

Show me the math.

 

But much of your fuel does need to be shipped from oversees, then transported on a big rig to the fuel station.

For the distance I will drive my current vehicle, a Prius will burn just under 30,000 pounds of fuel, your truck will burn just over 110,000 pounds.

Which is more efficient: transporting 3100 pounds of car, or an extra 80,000 pounds of fuel? I can borrow an F-250 from dad or sis the one day a year I need it, and drive something more efficient the rest of the year.

Same applies to most of the other materials in any car / truck.

So one broad at Costco disses you, and you take it out on "y'all" over here? Why?

 

I have always kept my cars more than 10 years after finishing payments. The previous car, the nicest model built in Marysville Ohio at that time, gave me 32 mpg and saved 8300 gallons compared to a truck at 15 mpg. At your gas price (which is lower than here) the fuel savings was more than enough for my next car.

So I bought the Prius with cash, and have no payments and plenty left over. So now I'm banking that $2943 per year. Two years down, 10-15 years to go.

Maybe you are too young to need to save much money for the future. But I'm much closer to retirement, and need to be piling it up. Which it is.

 

The government (EPA measure) rates car size by interior volume, not exterior.

Ford Fusion Hybrid: 111.6 cubic feet
Chevy Malibu: 112.8 cubic feet
Gen3 Prius: 115.3 cubic feet
Ford Fusion non-hybrid: 116.8 cubic feet

So a Prius is actually larger than an Midsized Ford Fusion Hybrid or a Midsized Malibu. And it still has the best parking and turning circle of the bunch.

The usable size really surprised me when I got one as a free rental upgrade several years ago on a two week vacation. Only then did I start paying much attention to it.

 

I also believe its not an attractive car, but whats one man's opinion?

At 3.54 a gallon, with a 15 mpg average. I spend $4295.41.

With the prius, I would spend $1352.28 (50 city 45 hwy)

$2943.13 savings a year.

Now with a car payment how would I save money? It would take me 3 years if the car was 8829.39

now how about a more realistic 15-20k? Then its 4,5,6? Not worth it my friend, plus higher insurance, plating, registration etc.

So how about transporting 3100 lbs of car AND that 30,000 lbs of fuel?

After my experience with said prius owner, I decided to come here to see what y'all were about.

 

I really think your math needs a bit of work. How are you assuming it is more detrimental to ship a 3100lb Prius + 30,000lbs ( total 33,100lbs) of fuel vs. shipping 110,000lbs of fuel for your rig? My math says your rig is creating the bigger eco footprint and endangering more US lives than the Prius is.

You need to start looking at the long term payoff. I understand that at 18 years old long term thinking is not a priority but some of these folks that are saving for retirement have it figured out. It would do us well to learn from their thinking. If by ditching an older gas guzzler you could buy a newer used car and have it paid off in 3-5yrs due to fuel savings then I would think that is a fantastic deal.

Quick and dirty math:

1996 Dodge Durango resale value = $3,185
2006 Toyota Prius resale value = $10,000
.....................................................................
Difference = $6,815

Fuel cost per/yr at 15,000 miles driven and $3.54ga
Durango 15mpg = $3540/yr
Prius 45mpg = $1180/yr
.....................................
Difference = $2360/yr saved driving the Prius

In this scenario you could have paid off your loan for the Prius in as little as 2.88yrs. From that point on you are now free of debt and saving $2,360/yr. This is assuming no major repair for either vehicle. Drive the Prius for a total of 100,000 miles and you will have paid off the car and saved nearly $9,000 vs. driving your Durango for the same amount of miles.

 

You asked for one way the Prius saves us money, and you were given several examples. It may not save you money, but that wasn't your question. It may, or it may not. That's for you to decide. I, for one, would not drive either of your vehicles even if I could get free gasoline.

My god, you find the Prius unattractive? Have you looked at your cars lately. To me, they were all bland square boxes when new. I cannot imagine what they look like now. In any event, I like the look of the Gen III Prius.

Now don't get me wrong, I appreciate a good V8 and have owned a few. My Cobra's V8 is a beauty. I even know the names of the two people who hand assembled it in Dearborn. It even gets around 25 mpg, which is better than a lot of new cars. And if you want to talk about fun to drive....

I bought the Prius to replace a rapidly dying car that would have cost me thousands of dollars to fix. It had come to the point of diminishing returns. I'm sure someone traded in a car of even worse shape for it, and so on.

When I looked for a replacement, I was mostly limited by garage space. I no longer buy used cars because I'm not interested in buying someone else's problem. The new car couldn't be too long, which reduced the pool of cars to consider. As others have mentioned, the Prius has a relatively large interior compared with its external dimensions. The Ford Fusion, for example, is a big car on the outside, but I find it cramped on the inside.

Honestly, I would not have considered the Prius had Toyota not come out with the Gen III while I was looking. What ultimately convinced me was that I appreciated the engineering that went into the car. It is efficient in more ways than just mpg's. Unlike most cars I have owned, the oil filter is right next to the drain valve and not buried somewhere else (although the access panel is hinged the wrong way IMO). I may never have to do anything with the engine, but it looks like there is plenty of room to work. Likewise, if you know what you are doing, you can pretty much tear the dash apart in minutes. The Prius also has lots of advanced technology, of which I love the radar cruise control because I can drive for hours and not get tired. And I'm not even talking about the expected reliability of the car. But if you look forward to fixing your car on the weekends, the Prius probably isn't the right car for you.

In short, I bought the Prius because it is an interesting car. It's the same reason I bought my Cobra with Mystic color-shifting paint (look it up, it's way cool!).

Finally, it's unfortunate that people who want to work are not working. There are many reasons for that. I think the main villans in the auto industry are the executives that decided decades ago to build the cars they wanted to build (to maximize profits) and not cars that many people would be most interested in buying. When I first saw a Japanese car in the 70's, it was far better built than my family's Fords; and that's one reason why they have done so well ever since. As others have mentioned, many cars and other things with American brand names use foreign-made components or are assembled outside the US. It is just reality that things will be made where it is cheaper to do so, whether it's a car, a computer, or just about anything you can buy at Walmart. At least my Prius was assembled by skilled workers in (at the time) a country with a high standard of living.

 

How would you save money? Well, what if you drive that car for 15 years? I intend to get rid of my* Prius by giving it to my daughter when she goes to college. She turns 4 in June.

You're also completely ignoring maintenance costs. I love old cars myself, but now that I don't have much time to do the wrenching myself they can get awfully expensive. That clutch that used to cost $300 in parts and a couple weekends is now $2500 to get the garage to do it (true, that's for my old Porsche 944 Turbo, which has a notoriously nasty clutch replacement). The Prius is basically zero maintenance cost for 100k. As someone who has kept a few junkers going in the past, I'm amazed at how little it needs - brake pads go forever, no belts, it just works. The wife hooked up our accounts to mint.com, which makes tracking auto maintenance expenditures easy and my old car habit sure doesn't look cheap anymore.

Maintenance is usually the kicker for me. When the transmission goes or any part of the piston-rod assembly physically breaks the engine casing, it's usually time for a car replacement. That's when getting a Prius might save you money (although you'll save more if you settle for a econo-box like a Yaris or Scion or Fit, just like you'll save even more if you just go to a motorcycle - but show me how to fit two car seats, a grandma, myself and the wife in any of those options). A used one a couple years old would be the most economical purchase.

*More my wife's Prius.

 

I'm tempted to start a thread asking how many other Prius owners have a 'guilty pleasure' car in their garage too (mine are a Porsche 944 turbo and a Triumph Spitfire). The engineering in the Prius is just as precise and focused as the engineering in a well tuned sportscar. It is put together to do one thing very well, and it does. For gearheads who are drawn to beautiful engineering, I see no contradiction in owning a 'gas guzzling' sportscar and a 'tree hugging' Prius. But it is somewhat non-intuitive and therefore amusing to see how often it crops up.

 

Yes, I appreciate all the engineering that has gone into the Prius. I don't think the engineers got everything right, but it is probably the most advanced car that an average person can buy. That's the kind of thing that interests me. And if I can save gasoline while I enjoy the car, that's fine with me.

I've seen many Prius owners say that they either own or have owned performance cars. I wonder if they drive the Prius like me or like a hypermiler.

 

Any modern vehicle, the basics like oil changes can still be DIY. Anything major, unless you have a good OBDII interface, forget about it.

For example, almost all modern vehicles have drive-by-wire throttle, many are coming out with electric assist power steering, and electric assist brakes. Know how to work on that? I have the shop manual for my FJ, the electric assist brakes require the TechStream tool for almost everything

Simple fact of almost every new vehicle +2004

You contradict your stance on emissions a few posts later

The cost per barrel is far higher than mid east oil, which is why offshore oil is heavily subsidized. Among other things I have a degree in Chemical Engineering and used to provide a lot of consulting to the petrochemical industry. Although dangerous work, it sure paid good I made a small fortune

A good example of heavily subsidized offshore oil is the Hibernia field in the Grand Banks offshore area of Newfoundland. The Canadian government had to se up a Crown Corporation to guarantee 100% cost recovery. Even when oil spiked >$120 a barrel, Hibernia still needed that guaranteed cost recovery to break even

The oil sands in Alberta is another area that requires heavy taxpayer subsidies just to break even. I actually do believe we have substantial energy reserves On Continent, it's just that the cost to recover them is so extreme that $100 barrel oil doesn't touch it

I'm not "liberal" never was and never will be. My relatives were Republican in the States, and Conservative here in Canada. I'm Independent, most closely aligned with Libertarian but I don't agree with the Libertarian view of minimal regulations

The fuster cluck that was the Mortgage Meldown is a prime example of what happens when you remove regulation

I would consider myself to be an "old fashioned" Conservative. That is, I worry about the future, and how to make things better. Not to live in the moment

So you still would favor subsidizing oil?

Not sure if I mentioned it, but I'm also a Veteran. Spent 10 years in the US Army putting my nice person on the line, to keep YOU safe. Most of that time, I was a 98K. Not sure what that is? Look it up

I will say that based on my military background, NOBODY listens to those with the facts. Everything is based on emotion and bullshit

Neither of my parents finished grade school, they were born and raised during an era where times were very desparate. They didn't want me to make the same mistake.

I learned how to do things the hard way, my folks made sure of that. I then got several college degrees which you seem to poo-poo: B.Sc. Computer Science, B.Sc. Chemical Engineering, and B.Sc. Economics. Not too many folks can do petroleum exploration without heavy duty education

Nor can many folks offer consultiing to the petroleum industry, or the defense industry, without a heavy duty education. Do i think I'm better than other folks? No. But could you do my job?

No

Like my FJ Cruiser that sits in the garage most days of the week? My Prius was FAR roomier inside.

Know what? I love driving too. I have an old hobby truck with a sound, maybe drive it 100 miles a year.

But most of us have to live in the real world. I look at how I can write off my business expenses, and it's far easier to justify a write down on a modern vehicle than an old vehicle

I personally don't have to commute anymore, perhaps I put on 4,000 miles a year. Everything else involves catching a flight, or telecommuting. That works for me

As a Chemical Engineer, I'd like to know your thoughts on how we derive hydrogen in a cost effective way. By the current practice of methane reforming, it's grossly inefficient and a huge money pit.

As far as a car that can "barely" get out of its own way, my '04 Prius used to easily blow the doors off many economy cars of 90's vintage.

As far as cost vs benefit, look up Duffy's Taxi in Winnipeg

About Us - Duffy's Taxi - 1100 Notre Dame Avenue

Compared to a standard Crown Vic, the Prius offered them rapid ROI. That is Return On Investment. Much lower repair bills. Duffy's also quashed the bullshit rumours of frequent battery pack replacements, maintenance, etc

Did you know a replacement battery pack is cheaper than a Crown Vic transmission? Guess how often a Crown Vic eats transmissions in taxi use?

Since the Prius uses regeneration to slow when you first apply the brake pedal, the brake pads last far longer than a Crown Vic. So overall, Duffy's Taxi discovered that from the early experiment to now the majority of their fleet being hybrids, the Prius offers them enormous ROI

Have you provided a cost breakdown on that domestic drilling? I've already touched on that

How?

Thanks to all those evil and job-destroying emissions standards that you appear to hate so much. If it wasn't for mandatory emissions regulations of vehicles, and industry, we'd still have air that we could see

The EU came very late to auto emissions. It was possible to buy new a non-emission car into the 1990's. Now they are quickly playing catch-up, hence the ACEA requirement for emissions controls on all light duty gas and diesel engines

Don't start on the light duty diesel fleet in the EU. Fuel economy isn't as great as you think. Nobody here understands how fuel economy is ranked in the EU: it is ranked in litres per 100km or l/100km

When converted to MPG, it is converted to miles per IMPERIAL gallon, not miles per US gallon. There are 4.54 litres per Imperial gallon, and 3.78 litres per US gallon.

So the diesel fanboys here rant about a microcar in the EU market getting 65 mpg, beat that Prius. But that same Prius, much larger, is rated 67 MPG

In miles per Imperial gallon

So do something about it

So get more efficient. All of us have to. The free ride is over

Just curious, do you refer to African Americans as n*****s?

Compare the truck I used to have, a 2000 GMC Sierra with that 5.3 Vortec. The Vortec that burned oil and went knock-knock-knock from new. The new 2011 GM trucks are light years better

Yes, let's

First of all, the "facts" as originally reported were from a clown at a small community college. Ran the story in the college paper. Other bylines included "rape only hurts if you fight it."

Sure you want to follow this guy?

A British newspaper took the "data" and ran with it, commenting on the "moonscape" around Sudbury, Ontario and the INCO nickel mine

Funny thing happened. City of Sudbury sent a very scathing reply to that British newspaper and they retracted the story. Seems there is no "moonscape" around Sudbury, not since they applied emissions controls in the late 1970's and cleaned all that shit up

Something else about those "toxic" Prius batteries. The nickel in them does come from the INCO mine, which is actually now Vale. About 1% of total Vale output goes to Toyota. Where does the rest go?

To American industry

See, Nickel has many uses. High strength steel requires nickel. Stainless steel needs lots of nickel. Lot of nickel in chrome. So a heavy pickup truck with chrome accessories actually has FAR more nickel content than a Prius

But don't take my word for it, I'm just a dumb liberal bookworm engineer. Go straight to the Nickel Institute

Nickel & Its Uses - About Nickel

Looks like 2/3 of all nickel production is for making stainless steel

Where Nickel is Used

but don't take my word for it

Since my 2000 GMC Sierra was used for business, I kept detailed logs of fuel and maintenance. The Sierra averaged 14 miles per IMPERIAL gallon, it guzzled gas. Good thing it was a write-off for me. And I drive like a grandpa

Those with similar trucks reported similar fuel economy. Not sure how you can get such good fuel economy out of a pickup unless you practice hypermiling techniques.

My folks had a '75 Chevy Impala that averaged 13. They got a '79 Dodge Van for work, it averaged 8.

Had a 2003 Corolla lease for 1 year. It averaged 36 miles per Imperial gallon. The Prius over the time I had it, averaged 45 miles per Imperial gallon

Unlike the Corolla, the Prius had ABS, stability control, head curtain and side impact airbags. Those are important to me, I was in a rental that got broadsided by a drunk and the head curtain airbags saved my life

So when I got my '07 FJ, I paid a lot extra for head curtain and side impact airbags

Your Mileage May Vary

 

Well, you can choose to spend your money how you want, but you're making a bad long-term investment.

You're happy to drive a 15 year old vehicle. Over a 15 year period with a Prius you would save $44146.95 in gas. Deduct $3500 for a replacement battery. That's $40646.95. Let's go as mad as a bag of cats and deduct $1000 per year for Registration and insurance. That leaves $25646.95.

The MSRP on a new Prius is $23,050.

That's right, in the long run you'd be ahead even if:
- you bought a new Prius instead of a used one
- AND you overpaid for insurance for the entire 15 years
- AND you kept registering and insuring all 3 of your current vehicles
- AND driving the Prius instead of the other cars somehow didn't lower the maintenance costs on your older vehicles.

But, since you're somebody who'll drive older vehicles just buy used and you'll still save bundles in the long term.