Why would anyone Own a Prius

Actually I don't think the HS looks anything like a Camry...like a Corolla and a Prius mixed together...

 

We finally agree on something...HS looks like a Corolla knockoff! Actually, at some angles, the Corolla looks better!

I am going to dream about what the 2nd gen HS is going to be like...damn, i hope Lexus invest more into the 2nd gen....

 

I did look up and compare the 4 cars ... the Prius, Camry, hs250h, and Corolla, and dimensionally, the 250H falls pretty much right between the Corolla and Camry, a little closer to the Camry. About the only thing it shares dimensionally with the Prius is the wheelbase. It's a full 10 inches longer than a Prius, 6 inches longer than the Corolla, and roughly 5 inches shorter than the Camry. Wheelbase is 3 inches shorter than the Camry, and 4.5 inches greater than the Corolla, exactly equal to the Prius. It's 2 pounds heavier than the Camry, around 700 pounds heavier than the Prius, and a full 1000 pounds heavier than the Corolla.

I'd say this puts it closer to the Camry than the Corolla. I thought it looked far bigger than a Corolla.

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The new Corolla nose makes me nauseous. If Toyota falls further off the perch because of gutless design, I won't feel an ounce of pity.

 

What is even more nauseated is that Toyota once again does not do enough to be a class leader! The Corolla was refreshened this year...they could have done a number of things to improve it...such as at least a 5-speed auto tranny because everyone in the segment has 6-speed auto/manual tranny. The engine could have been improved upon with direct injection...more power! We're just talking about powertrain here...hell, they could improve the boring cheap interior also. Instead, all they did was the a nose and tail job...still have the outdated 4-speed auto, still a 1.8L I4 with no guts.

Competition? Ford Focus has a 6-speed automated dual clutch manual (high end stuff here!!), TORQUE-VECTORING differential (!!), 170 hp 2.0L I4 with direct injection, and 28/38 mpg (similar to Corolla). So, with the Focus, you get same mileage, but tons more power and good handling. And lets not forget the stylish interior with pretty good materials. The Chevy Cruze has a 6-speed auto, slightly more power, and a wonderful interior with very nice materials and Lexus-like quietness! How can we forget about Kias and Hyundais? They have improved by leaps and bounds!

And THIS is the best that Toyota can do with the Corolla?! Really?!

Seriously, what is going at Toyota? Is Toyota spending all their money on these recalls and just refusing to update their outdated models??? They are clearly falling behind the competition...and they are not even trying to claw their way back....

Well, if i did not have the Prius, then i know where my money would go...2012 Ford Focus!

 

Don't forget .... the Focus is BRAND NEW .... it's not like Ford has been offering this high tech stuff forever. Also, since it IS brand new, it's reliability and quality will be a total crapshoot. It will also cost about $2-3K more than the run of the mill Toyota Corolla.

Toyota knows it's customers .... for every enthusiast like many here ... there are 1000 Toyota buyers who are buying Toyotas and don't know about and couldn't care less about 5 and 6 speed double clutch transmissions. They want the legendary and vaunted Toyta quality, which admittedly has slipped considerably lately, but still blows away anything America can come up with.

I agree totally about Hyundai and Kia ... their current offerings are spectacular, or at least seem spectacular at first glance. There's a revolution going on in the compact and subcompact classes these days, and it should be good for the consumer. Those classes are certainly destined to be the dominant classes going forward with the price of fuel skyrocketing. It's why I bought a Prius, I know that for sure.

It seems like right around 40MPG is what is possible at this point with non-hybrid tech, and that's only on the highway, so it's more like 35 or so combined. I think it's gonna be awhile before somebody comes up with a competitor to the Prius at an easy 50 combined, and some very near 60 MPG combined. Hybrids like the hs250h or the new Lexus Matrix thing won't fly at $30-40K.

The Prius still dominates in the $20-22K econo-car market for mileage ... and BELIEVE ME .... THAT is what people are going to be looking at from now on. Toyota can kiss the Tundras, Tacomas, 4Runners, Sequioas, and Highlanders GOOD BYE at $4-$6 per gallon. Also, with gas at $4+ per gallon, prepare to see the price of your SUV/pickup trade-in plummet, and the incentives on high MPG vehicles evaporate. THat's what I looked at when I traded my 08 RAV4 for my 10 Prius. I figured if I waited, it would have been about a $6K worse deal for me .... minus $3-4K on my trade, and plus $2-3K on the Prius with no incentives and/or discounts available.

There's a new sheriff in town, and that sheriff is called M-P-G.

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Well, Ford has been doing quite well in quality ratings with their recent models...and Ford has posted record sales lately...so, I am not sure if Toyota knows their customers anymore than others.

 

I agree Thai, Ford definitely has it's stuff together. I really like the new Focus as well (as well as most of the other Fords), and if it's like other current Fords, it will be excellent.

Toyota didn't get to where they are by not knowing their customers and what they want. If they need to get away from the frumpy designs and marginal performance, and be a little adventuresome .... they will. They've fallen by the wayside a little bit and Hyundai and Kia have surely shocked EVERYBODY, including the automobile pundits, who never saw them coming. Well ... they sure see them NOW, don't they ?

Toyota will be just fine ... they'll update and modernize and come into the current times ... they'll be FORCED to in order to survive. They have some great cars, and all it would take is for them to put some decent engines in them, tweak the suspensions a little, and get a new styling team.

They could get away from the frumpiness and into performance and sleekness by 2013 if they wanted to. It'll be interesting to see if they can change course effectively, or if they're so big now that they're like GM .... impossible to change.

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I hope that you're right. The 2011 Corolla was supposed to be its midcycle refresh to keep it competitive. The 2012 Honda Civic is on the way too...and that car too seems to be a step forward from the current gen. The Corolla redesign is still a few years from now. 4-speed auto with 138 hp ain't gonna cut it. By 2012, the Corolla will be at the BOTTOM of the fuel economy list among the competition. Now, as you said, when fuel prices go up, then being at the bottom of the barrel is not going to help.

I have been less than impress with Toyota's recent redesigns. Take the Avalon...it was basically a re-skinned change...same car, different outer skin and refreshened interior. Take the 4runner. The 5th gen 4runner is better in some ways than the previous gen with significant cost cutting...and the design wasn't really a major overhaul either (despite Toyota's claim)...frame was basically carried over, suspension not much (except for changes in shock positioning), etc.. Interior got cheaper in materials and 4wd systems got "simplified."

For me, it seems like Toyota is still in shell shock from the recall fiasco...and they are still reeling from that...all the while, the competition is catching and surpassing them at shocking rate! Ford is no long "Fix Or Repair Daily"...Chevy is no longer a Cavalier...Kia is no longer a one trick pony for under $10k cars...and Hyundai is no longer an entry brand.

This is why i am hoping that the Lexus HS 2nd gen will be better...it is still several years in the future...hopefully, by that time, Lexus is back to producing something that is more worthwhile than HS250h and CT200h.

 

Completely agreed ! THe funny thing is though, that all through the recalls, their sales have not suffered unduly. That's because it FORCES them to have some nice fat incentives, and existing 'Toyota people', who know the cars, can easily dismiss a lot of these hokey recalls for non-existent or non-important things, and upgrade into a newer or nicer Toyota, and hand down the older one to a family member, or get a decent trade toward the new one.

I've owned Toyotas since the early 2000's, and no recall would scare me away, especially if it's on a different vehicle, or is for something as stupid as the floot mat thing. Give me a break ... a recall for FLOOR MATS ?? It seems that every time the recall thing fades, there's another one that crops right up. Means nothing to me.

As auto buyers become more and more sophisticated, and learn about other cars like the new Sonata, Elantra, Focus, and Optima's, Toyota will have to respond with better styling, performance, and reliability. They'll either respond, or THEY'LL be the new KIA of 5 years ago.

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My Coupe only has a 5 sp automatic, but it only spins about 2200 rpms at 70 mph. Corolla is kinda lame. Don't like way the steering wheel has that up ward tilt to it, sort of SUV like. I would take a Civic over Corolla any day of the week. Focus looked alright when I sat in it. Don't know about Cruze and others. I've said it before, but I just don't see the greatest sense of style in many Toyota vehicles. Camry S was turn off to see how boring the console design is even though exterior is pretty nice. Camry with sunroof, insufficient headroom for me. Shouldn't be that way in a midsize. Accord with sunroof fine for me.

 

Stopped by Lexus dealership last week...unfortunately, their demo CT200h was out at an event. Anyways, talked with salesman and got pricing guide (along with brochure). A few things:

1. Pricing is better than i expect...but still not sure if competitive enough
2. Base price: $30,900 (MSRP)
3. With Premium audio OPTION (10 speaker setup, NOT Mark Levinson; includes homelink, auto dimming rearview mirror), price = $32,900 including "delivery processing and handling" (The option itself costs $1125.)

My notes: not sure why homelink is optional...must be a "lets-be-like-those-German" thing! USB is standard on base model...nice. But, given that the JBL in our Prius is a $1000 option, the premium audio is only $1125, not a bad deal...how it actually sounds is up in the air since no specs were given, only that it uses some lightweight low energy-draining amplifer and bamboo speaker materials. There seems to be a center channel (from pics) and a cargo subwoofer. Given the price of the upgrade, i wonder how much better it sounds compared to our Prius JBL???

4. With Premium audio option + HDD Navigation (no music storage; includes rearview camera, Enform, and XM trial stuff), car costs $35,633. HDD Navigation itself costs $2445.

My notes: Again, this is not too far from what Toyota charges for similar stuff on the Prius.

5. In the brochure, NO MARK LEVINSON OPTION. Why did Lexus pull the plug?? Why last minute??

6. PCS (including DRCC) is optional as standalone. NO self-parking feature. NO lane-keep assist.

7. LED headlights is optional as standalone.

8. Leather package is optional and includes memory seats, rain-sensing wipers, and autodimming outside mirrors. I did not get the cost on this option package. This will be rare to come by since Lexus is pushing the vinyl seats to give the appearance of low pricing on the CT.

And from talking with salesman, getting options #6 and #7 require SPECIAL ORDER. No dealerships plan on routinely ordering CTs with these options. So, basically, to get what the Prius Five has, you need to basically pay top dollar and special order your CT200h. And even then, Lexus has deleted the self-park feature (minor) and lane-keep assist (major IMO since this is on most new luxury car!)...and you're STILL STUCK WITH VINYL SEATING!! Granted, the vinyl stuff in the CT looks nice (from pics)...but no memory seat, and ONLY the driver's seat is powered?! (Again, too much like those damn Germans!!)

So, to be equipped like a Prius Five, you need to spend OVER $40,000 (after taxes, tags, etc.). A Prius Five can be had for under $35k (after taxes, tags, etc.)...and you still have self-park feature & lane-keep assist.

Nice, but i think that there are very nice cars for around $40k and less....

YMMV.

 

The Prius V is a waste to begin with, you don't get a solar roof all so you can have features that any person who enjoys driving would shudder at??? I am on my 2nd Prius and love it to death, this over priced Prius with a Lexus badge does not appeal to me at all. Maybe I will test drive it and change my mind, but 40k? Not a chance I would buy one

 

Nah, you can keep your weak solar roof...i much prefer my bright LED headlights, much better steering, 17" rims with low profile tires, and unique suspension tuning! Damn, i did not know that these features are for people who don't enjoy driving!! Maybe i will trade for those tiny little 15" rims for more sporty feel!!

 

So is this the new Prii 5 body wrapped in Lexes badges?

 

Nope, it is smaller than Prius. According to rumors, it is based on the next gen Corolla platform or something like that.

 

Here is a review that kinda reflects what i posted in this thread: Review: 2011 Lexus CT200h | The Truth About Cars

But, i must admit that TTAC is brutal...sometimes overly brutal....

 

Sounds about right to me .... a grossly overpriced small econobox.

DOA in the US ....

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Above is the TSX SportWagon...and for a MSRP of under $35k, you get leather seats, memory driver seat, HDD NAVI with music storage, ELS stereo (on par with the regular Mark Levinson systems), more room, more practicality, much faster, slightly better handling, and 30 mpg highway. Granted, fuel economy is not as good, but i think that the rest of the package makes up for the difference.

 

Nice looking car Thai !

I bet you can get some hefty discounts too. Probably drive away for around $30K, right ?

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