Riled about rail: Why all the anger over high speed trains?

US residents have been dependent on oil for so long they cannot imagine any other form of transportation. While trains are more efficient, trains & public transportation have been so poor for so long (other than freight) riding a train seems to be a giant step backwards. Efficiency, economy and cost are not a factor. Opposition to trains is emotional.

Ride a train is clean, quiet, safe and convenient. You can plug in your iPhone, read a newspaper, sleep, eat, play cards, watch a DVD. People objecting to trains have not been to Europe nor ridden a train in the US.

We are in Peak Everything (Heinberg, R. 2010) and the easy ride on "cheap" oil is over. Expect fuel to go to $20 gallon ($5 Liter) in short order. Those who object to trains may drive large SUVs and will quickly shed them as fuel become more expensive. (Stiener, C. 2010.
$20 Per Gallon: How the Inevitable Rise in the Price of Gasoline Will Change Our Lives for the Better).

I filled up our Prius yesterday - 7.5 gallons @ $28.50. The woman next to me filled up her SUV at a cost of $95 and talked about how she drives her more efficient Toyota most of the time. We are in the transition to change for the better, it's just that the trains aren't here yet.

 

Maybe it's because the US is SUCH a big country?

Sure it's quicker to travel from A to B via high speed train in Europe (by the time you've checked in and cleared security at the airport), but in the US the journey is more likely to be 4,000 than 400 miles.

But it is odd that you don't have any high speed modern railway network when pretty much the rest of the modern world does.

 

naah.. it is 100% cultural.

T-baggers also see mandated 2016 35MPG fleet avg as "assault on their freedom".

US is deeply divided country, with half population living in modern world reality and another half thrown back into medieval inquisition darkness.

What is really fascinating that despite sharp divide, all political rhetoric and availability of firearms there is no civil war going on. Only isolated incidents like Oklahoma bombing, Waco, AZ shooting, abortion doctor killing, etc.

 

I, personally, think a well-thought-out rail system could be useful. But, I wouldn't support one that was run by the government only because of the gross inefficiencies in most of the things they do. Take Amtrak, for example. In the Northeast, I'm told it's not too shabby. But for travel to the rest of the country, it's a dismal failure.

But, on a more current level, I wouldn't support anything that results in increased spending. We just flat out can't afford it right now. Until that matter's resolved, it shouldn't even be a topic for politicians.

 

it is a pipe dream. The railroad system is either government ran or heavily subsidized all over the world. The same way the highway system is.

Do you have problem with government running highway system? spending humongous money on hwy construction? Highways cost far more then railroad would, per person/per ton of cargo.

Not trying to start argument, just stating facts.

 

No argument detected.

Oh, I agree there are gross inefficiencies and massive waste in building and maintaining highways, too. But, even if rail service was very prolific, the highways would still be needed (travel to and from rain stations, emergencies, local commerce, and so-on). Highways aren't going away, so they're pretty much out of the discussion. Rail would just be an additional waste if it were run like Amtrak (or the USPS, another example of horrible quasi-government operation).

I would expect the American public to both be in favor of a rail system (if nothing else for the coolness of it), but would expect road traffic to still remain about the same levels, making rail somewhat of a boondoggle.

In any case, right now isn't the time to be spending on it. We don't have the money.

 

Speaking personally, I'm not sure I would have much use of a high speed train any more. Most of my driving is local (less than 15 minutes drive) and clearly wouldn't benefit from a high speed train. The rest is a long road trip each year back to Ohio - half the reason I drive is so my dog can come along easier than on planes, and that is probably true of trains as well (although I don't know this for certain, as it's never really been an option). Oddly enough, driving doesn't take that much longer than flying to get back to Ohio - 12 hours if I drive (that includes pit stops), versus 45 minutes to the airport, 2 hours waiting once I get there (since your supposed to show up 2 hours in advance), 1 hour flight to Chicago, 1 hour layover, 1 hour flight to Ohio, and another 45 minutes to my mom's place. All said, 6.5 hours - enough to make it pretty much a wasted day anyways.

But man, back in the day high speed trains would have been great. I went to school in Cleveland, but my family was in Columbus. Having the option to take the train home for the weekend when wanted would have been awesome. As it was, I had to catch rides with friends until I got my own car up there, at which point it was a boring couple of hour drive, mostly by myself.

 

That's penny-wise, pound-foolish. We can't afford to start making things cheaper? Then we're going to be forced to continue doing things the expensive way.

Freight trains are commercial, although they have some government protections. It is possible that passenger trains could do the same, but the break-even date is too far out there for corporations with a CEO that is looking for receiving tens of millions in the next few years and probably a golden parachute after that.

I will admit though, I haven't really studied the costs involved. I know I took the train once, from Chicago to Syracuse, and it was very pleasant. Much more comfortable than flying, no lengthy security issues. But it's not much/any cheaper and it definitely takes longer (12 hours in this case - but high speed rails would take care of that). Not sure how the price points are doing now, I know airlines are really raising fees lately. And it certainly doesn't go everywhere you need it to.

 

I know you said you missed a few, but they're big ones: air that's fit to breathe, water that's safe to drink, food that's safe to eat, cars that are safe to drive...government is what makes civilisation possible.

 

do you realize that USPS is so "horrible" just because they are mandated to deliver to anyone? For some remote locations they have to do air drop, can you imagine in those instances it actually costs us 140,000$ per year to deliver mail once a week to one recipient?

What I find very disturbing that unlike our counterparts across the pond on avg we are very gullible and have virtually no immunity against propaganda. And unfortunately news reporting nowdays is an exercise of misrepresentation, partial truth and propaganda. Or at least it seems, I stopped following 10 years ago.

Sorry for the runt

:focus:

 

With apologies to BarbaraM, in NJ the train is not convenient or cheap. I can drive from "Philadelphia" (my side of the river) to New York City faster & cheaper than the train including the $8.00 toll for the tunnel & $15 parking at the Holiday Inn Midtown. Put two people in the car & there is no comparision. Add the security BS--no thanks.

 

^ This. +1 I've been to Europe reservations to ride the hi-speed are a hassle and the cost for walking on the hi-speed between London and Paris was enormous! As was the cost for transportation in London on the subway or taxi. No thank you! :nono:

 

Which is probably the big problem with Train funding. Its for the college kids - not the upper crust college kids, the one with middle class parents.


I personally took the train ("ridin on the city of new orleans") between home and school until my last year in grad school. It was great. Except one trip that took 10 hours (7 more than planned). That Easter night Chicago Union Station was litterly wall-to-wall hardly-any-space-to-move college kids. And we were headed out to 5 Illinois schools, 2 maybe 3 Michigan schools, 3 Indiana schools and at least 1 Wisconsin school.

The only other time I have been in such a crowded building was at my first Ham Radio Hamfest (midwinter fest) and also at the Dayton Ham Vention a few times.

 

Hysteria. Pure, unbridled hysteria.

Total hyperbole. I would venture to say that practically every single individual in the USA has been on a train. Thus, it's very easy for them to imagine a form of transportation other than a car. I mean, your typical commuter rail has a loud, large multi ton diesel electric engine pulling double decker commuter cars. You've got to be practically insane not to "imagine" a huge piece of iron like that. It's not like you are talking about the Lock Ness monster or something. Get real.

Secondly, regarding emotions and trains. A boy's first love is often a train. We love trains. We can't get enough of them. The train museum in Sacto, CA is marvelous. As a boy in Boston, I couldn't wait for those special times of the year to ride the T. If anything, peoples emotions are POSITIVE towards trains.

However, as a commuter device, trains are completely impractical for us here. When I was in the Bay, I made it a MISSION to utilize public transport. I was in the East Bay and worked next to Livermore national lab. I had a two mile walk to BART, got on BART to the Dublin line, took that line to Pleasanton and then got the one of the buses that headed over to the lab. Although I loved doing it and I religiously did it rain or shine for nearly a year, it was expensive, time consuming and impractical. And in fact, my boss HATED it when I blew out of work at 5:35 to catch the chain of events which would bring me home by 7:00.

Lastly, I wasn't aware that trains weren't "dependent on oil."

I'll bet you $1000 on the spot that we won't see $20 a gallon for gasoline (in inflation corrected dollars in the next 20 years. That's just BS. Coal gassification can produce gasoline far cheaper than that. Where do you get this nonsense?

 

7.5 gallons of gas for $28.50 is $3.80 a gallon, not bad! I am unaware of any SUV's that have a 25 gallon gas tank, which she would have had to have in her SUV for it to cost $95. I'm also unaware of any gas in the Fresno area for less than $4.00 per gallon. Care to share and did you mean to say she filled up her main tank and another side tank, or what?

 

5 SUVs that get less than 16 MPG, cost more than $100 to fill up — Autoblog Green

from 4 years ago.

 

Florida rejected the high speed rail project totally or partially on the federal government's requirement that Florida pay for all overruns and make up for all operating cost losses once in operation. I think those are valid reasons, especially when the state is beyond broke, and Amtrak in Florida is not a runaway success.

I also question this use of 2.4 billion in rail money. How does one get to the beaches from Tampa? How does one get to all the attractions in Orlando from the Airport? A direct link from Tampa to Orlando in a fraction of an hour.....then you fight major traffic for some distance to get to any of the final destinations. I make this trip many times a year. I spend as much time navigation through Tampa and Orlando as travelling between them at prime traffic times, so the high speed link would save very little "End to End" time, if any.

If anyplace could have made great use of a local rail system for huge local train traffic, it would have been Orlando. That would have been a much better starting point for a potentially powerful local rail system.

 

took amtrak from boston to ny to see our daughter a few years ago. got on the train a couple stops outside boston, we had to sit in separate seats because every single person had taken a seat by themselves and the train was full. (of double seats with one person in each) the regional (15 stops $160. rt) is notoriously late and the acela (2 stops $260. rt) has better cars but still not convenient. you have to wait in line in the lunch car for an hour to get a cold sandwich and a drink and, of course, all the tables are taken by people who spend the whole trip sitting at them. since then, we always drive. two tickets cost more than gas and parking in manhatten. i guess we're spoiled.